Non scary make up counter ladies?

[TheGirlOnTheLanding]

I have reached my mid 40s without ever finding a good daytime lipstick. I have tried many times, but the lipsticks described as nude are always too brown, and the ones I pick out for myself are too dark/berry coloured. When I was younger I got away with just a bit of lip salve but I think I need some colour now, so I have reluctantly concluded I need to get over my fear of permatanned make up counter ladies judging me on my lack of grooming and pasty middle aged skin and will have to ask their advice. Which are the least scary ones, who won't try to hard sell me loads of 'essential' products I don't want and have a good range of natural looking make up?

Just go to Boots as a first port of call and try some testers. If someone asks you if you need help, say 'thanks so much, I'm browsing but I'll shout if I need some assistance'. They usually back off.

I'm only suggesting Boots because they tend to be less intimidating in there, and you have a lot of choice. As for natural make-up, I think the Liz Earle range is great for lipsticks and cream blushers and I am in love with the Clinique chubby sticks. They have new ones just out for the cheek and I use them on my lips, too, with a bit of clear gloss if I'm in a hurry. Really user friendly and quick and perfect for that undone 'but done' look.

Completely agree that a lot of the nude lipsticks are badly named and make you look dug up. I would personally go for something that had a hint of coral or pink in as it warms up the complexion without looking frightening.

It really depends on skin tone and how much time you're prepared to give over to applying it in the morning. Also on skin type, as cream formulations better for dryer skins and powders for oilier gals.

People on the forums seem to favour MAC for non-pushiness but personally I don't rate their foundations very highly and especially if you want something natural you might want to go for a tinted moisturiser or BB initially.

I don't think anyone can say that only nice people ever work for this brand...

I think you have to have a little chat with some different ones, to see who you feel comfortable with.

Bobbi Brown are great for natural, Clinique and Clarins also good. Mac good for colour if you feel lile going a bit more dramatic. Chanel and Dior great if you want to feel a bit of glam just getting the lipstick out of your bag...

I find Clinique to be generally non-scary but I don't let them sell me skin care (other than the odd product like Take Off The Day Balm I don't think they're particularly good at skin care but they are very invested in the idea that their little white lab coats mean that they are.) Buying lipstick from them has always been pleasant and I've done so at two locations (Boots and House of Fraser.)

I like Boots No 7 for buying lipstick, as well. I have used one of their foundations so I can use on of their cards that groups appropriate lipstick colours according to that. Sure enough, every lipstick I've tried on "my" card has worked for me! Unfortunately, their little computer zappy thingy is NOT very good at foundation matching so don't count on that to arrive at the correct lipstick card.

I am looking for that perfect lip colour too! I have pale skin, but quite pink lips in relation, so some look too eighties, or too berry toned? I find lipgloss a happy medium, though my everyday lipstick is from benefit (I went on a Sunday with no scary counter lady there)

So Clinique, Bobbi Brown or Boots are good places to start then. I like the sound of chubby sticks, they sound easier to apply than 'proper' lipstick. (I am not totally incompetent with make up, I can do winged eyeliner and everything, it's just lippy that I struggle with.)

I went in to boots this morning to get a new foundation (double wear) ... the Estee Lauder lady was lovely, not at all scary

Apparently, boots can colour match you a lipstick now. Like they do with the foundation. I've not tried it, but a friend has and was very impressed.

I usually approach the younger make-up ladies (20s and 30s), as they seem more eager to please and look grateful when asked for advice. Sometimes I pick one who looks a bit shy if I can't be bothered to fend off hard-sell attempts!
I often find the older assistants more pushy. I don't like feeling patronised or pressured into buying.
In my experience, Clinique, Clarins and Estée Lauder can be quite bossy at selling products. Elizabeth Arden, Benefit and Lancôme are normally more laid-back.

The Boots foundation and lipstick matching service is excellent.

My best experiences have been with the estee lauder and lancome counters and my worst have been with benefit and No7

estee lauder and Lancome weren't pushy and really took their time listening to what i wanted and didn't give me a hard sell on anything and especially not on products i wasn't looking for, I got great colour matching advice and came home with products that suited me and the look i was going for

Benefit and No7 did appalling colour matches, were pushy and did really overly made up looks that didn't suit me or my lifestyle at all. I do really like benefit make up but avoid the ladies and just buy what i already know suits

Bobbi Brown at John Lewis were brilliant when I asked for help with foundation and lipstick for my dd's wedding in December. They weren't pushy and didn't look down their noses at my normal unmade up face!!
I have a lovely pink lipstick by BB called Tulle which is fabulous- not too red or brown and lasts well too.

I had a really bad experience at Bobbi Brown in JL in Southampton when I was looking for concealer. The assistant put all the stuff on when all I asked for was one product, fair enough as they are meant to work together. When I asked for the one product I wanted she refused to sell it to me without all the other stuff. Needless to say I refused to be coerced and walked out without buying! Not been near BB counter since. Shame as I love the products.

I've always had the best advice at Nars.

They usually wear good makeup themselves.
I don't think that someone caked in tons of orange foundation and too bright lipstick can give any useful advice.

I worked on cosmetics counters for 15 years - clinique, chanel and then covered regularly for Lancome. They all work the same, the consultants all earn commission for everything they sell and they get a bonus / incentive for selling 2 or more items per transaction (IPT score- companies look at an individuals ipt score when assessing their success as a consultant). The whole point of clinique bonus time is to enable the consultants to build up their ipt score - you have to buy 2 or more items to get the bonus bag.

Every consultant is different and different brands operate slightly differently. Clinique are judged by mystery shoppers to ensure that if you ask about a foundation they offer you a seat and engage you in a skincare consultation (their 3 step skin care routine). Chanel will always look to introduce a fragrance - consultants should spritz any tissue put around the collar of a make over client with a new fragrance. Etc etc.

The main thing to do is just pick a consultant who seems friendly. Don't be put off if they have a lot of make up on themselves - most brands have a certain amount of products they require the consultants to wear. With clinique we had to wear foundation powder blusher primer etc the full works. Just look to see if they've applied it well.

Mostly don't feel pressurised. Just because their job is to sell doesn't mean you have to buy it. Ask them to write the names of the products down and say you will come back even if you have no intention of doing so - it makes the consultant feel they've done a good job!

Apparently if you download the Boots app there's an offer for No7 lipsticks- 100 points or something like that, and if you buy two products you get a No7 gift worth £24 (according to an email from Boots anyway)

That's really interesting Fairylea, thanks. I do know they are only doing their job but I find hard sell tactics so off putting and I know I'm not alone. I wonder if the companies realise they lose a lot of business with the upselling they insist on? Anyway, I'll wander into John Lewis and try to find a friendly face, whichever counter they're on.

I've only once in my life had a truly great experience with the counter ladies. She was a young girl straight out of beauty school, normal looking, non orange, natural face, no fake tan, no eyelash extensions, not affiliated with any brand, working in a slightly downhill department store (Debenhams type, the place no longer exists). She helped me to try on a bright Chanel lipstick, gave a honest and genuine opinion and agreed that I need to walk around in daylight to see whether it was too bright. Then she helped me to find a lipliner. I didn't buy the lipstick (but went back later), purchased the lipliner, have worn it to a stump and will keep repeat purchasing both until they are discontinued.

I think the sales-oriented counter personnel can sometimes be counterproductive. I've been a fairly big cosmetics spender and still shell out lots of cash for good products that really work. These days I make all my purchases in duty frees (where there is minimal staffing) or buy mineral makeup online. I value being able to look on my own. If I can sample the product, all the better, but many counter ladies are extremely snooty about this and I deeply dislike being in the begging position. I am willing to pay for small samples and trial products - many online companies get this.

Girl what is your personal colouring like? I'm early forties and it took me ages to find great daytime lipsticks. My best shades match the color of my nude lips but are shade or two darker. I'm blonde and pale with cool milky pink-toned skin. Browns age me, nudes wash me out, bright reds make my teeth look yellow: my perfect tones are in the mid-pink range. Chanel have excellent mid-pinks (my favorites are Coco Rouge 34 Satin and 13 Gardenia, my version of all-out red lipstick is 31 Cambon, an intense fruity/rasberry red). Many other great lipstick brands like Armani and Tom Ford go for flashier and more intense shades and miss this sweet spot. My best lipsticks look like nothing special in the tube so it would be easy to think 'boring shade' and pick something else.

It could also be that you don't need a lipstick. I like them and have worn them for 25 years but these days I think they may age me a bit and I only wear them when I'm going for a 'done' look. My favorite casual everyday look is Lily Lolo lipgloss in Bitten Pink or Damson Dusk, they look natural but add a bit of color and definition. They are inexpensive and only available online. I need a neutral invisible lipliner these days (Chanel 34 Natural) - it makes an incredible difference.

Sorry about the essay, good luck with your search!

The very best (in fact the only good) advice I got was from a young chap on a Mac counter in a House of Fraser. He was obviously gay & so friendly & helpful, not pushy at all. He was the first person in all my years of foundation buying to notice that although on first glance I don't look morgue like, my skin is in fact a white shade of pallor once you start to try on foundations. Most ranges don't go pale enough & make me look jaundiced. He picked the perfect match & also suggested the perfect blush & lipstick, neither of which I'd have considered in a month of Sundays, but didn't push me to buy them even though Mac usually try to get you to buy three things, instead suggested I live with the foundation for a few days/weeks & buy the rest if I was happy with it.
The worst experience was at a Clinique counter. Wanted a lipstick, was persuaded against my better judgement to let her do a full makeup & came out looking like Coco the clown. I sometimes think the women, perhaps without really realising it, tend to push you towards colours that they like themselves rather than look at you dispassionately, which the young Mac chap did.

I think they know they scare a fair few off but I also think a lot of people don't actually realise the counters pay commission so they are a bit gullible and if the consultant says a foundation is great and they need the powder and concealer to go with it they are pretty ready to part with their cash! It's odd working as a consultant because you get a divide between those customers who seem to think you are literally a god who works miracles and those who really talk down to you like you're some sort of village idiot. (And of course you do get nice regular customers too!)

To be honest there isn't a particular way to pick a lipstick for someone. Yes you can look at the tone of the skin and if they are more pink then you can go for more berry tones and less yellow and vice versa but really it is just trial and error. Those who are very pale (like me) can actually look better with a berry coloured lipstick used over something like Carmex lip balm (the best there is, contains bees wax which is the best ingredient for a lip balm) can give a really good healthy and natural look. I find nude lipsticks are never a proper nude and can actually make you look washed out.

Mac lipsticks are well respected within the industry for being "the best" but equally at the cheaper end L'Oréal have very good texture. (L'Oréal own Lancome).

Have fun :)

I tried on loads of lipsticks in Space NK the other day and the chap who helped me was v sweet and knowledgeable.

Another vote for Space NK. Although it does depend on how good your local one is. The big plus for me is that they've got lots of different brands to choose from, so a better chance of getting something that's really lovely for you. The minus is that those lots of different brands are all expensive ones!

Bourjois are my favourites, their black cased ones, can't remember the name, but it's n4, like lips, but better.
I complained about a Clinique rep in a John Lewis last year. I was with my Mum, who wanted a new foundation, and has always spent ££££s and the woman was an utter bitch and just carried on dusting the shelves while my Mum followed her round.
I also recently waited and waited and waited at another Clinique counter while the asst chatted to another member of staff.
I bought Clarins in the end.
Be wary of Estee Lauder. They like to tango you.

Estee Lauder and clinique consultants are trained in the same office in London often by the same trainers who tend to switch between brands every so often, so the consultants should be of the same training standard. I think you get consultants who love the orange too much in every brand!

Can't help with make up counter staff but on the subject of lipstick, try Eight Hour Lip Protectant Stick by Elizabeth Arden. You can get tinted versions - sorry, the link's in Swedish but it was the best photo I could find. I get mine in duty free but I think either Debenhams or House of Fraser has them, and you can get them on line, inc Amazon. I like the dark purply red one - you get a dark stain without ending up like Marilyn Manson - and you can play it doen or build it up as you like.

Another vote for Clinique Chubby Sticks. I have one in Whole Lotta Honey, and it's the perfect nude shade on.me. it's the only lipstick I ever use now.