Stopping emotions getting in the way of financial support for non resident children!

[zazas]

Does anyone else find the financial side of supporting non residential children a minefield? Between 'what is fair' and the emotional pressure that seems to dominate a decision it isn't straight forward. This is a constant cause of upset in our house and it would really help to perspective from others in a similar situation.

Our background is... 2 dc from my previous marriage (DD 11 and DS 8) and 2 from DH (DS 10 and DD 9) and together we have DD 2. My children are resident with us and only see their Dad for about 40 nights a year - he pays child maintenance for them but does not contribute to any other costs. My dsc are with us during the week / every 2nd weekend / 1/2 of all holidays and a good few other days as well - at least 40% of the time I guess. My DH pays maintenance above what is the guidelines for them.

We provide all the dsc clothing / shoes / coats etc at our house. On top of that DH also splits the costs of school shoes with his ex / any school trips and residential stays / takes full responsibility for any costs that occur while they are with us (birthday parties / school events etc) and pays for their judo / rugby fees and equipment.

However ex wants him to contribute more and this is where it is causing us grief! She now also wants him to pay for half of the school lunches and half of the children's new music and choir lessons.

We both believe that as she receives maintenance and plus all the govt. help (child benefit / tax credits etc) then she has to take responsibility to paying for the extras for the children out of this.

Our concern is that firstly we can't afford it! We run our own business and while we are maintaining it through this downturn we have absolutely no money spare at all. Secondly we both feel that she receives enough money from various sources to support the children and that we already support them fairly and to the best of our ability. Thirdly we are both resentful as she is works as an artist and uses the "I don't earn very much money" line in order to explain why she needs more financial support. She feels she can only earn a small amount as she can only work part time because of the children, even though my DH husband picks them up from school twice a week and effectively she has approx. 34 hours a week to work. She won't use after school care to extend her hours as she doesn't "wish" the children to do this! As a side she also chooses to take at least 10 weeks of holidays a year - including going away when we have the children!!!

Writing this down makes it seem to straight forward but unfortunately even though my DH feels that enough is enough he is so emotional about the children that she is able to use this to pretty much get him to agree to what she wants. This is where the conflict at home begins - I get resentful and DH feels trapped in this situation that he has allowed. He feels that any financial support that he refuses is an indication that he doesn't care for his children.

My feeling is that DH and I and my ex for that matter all work really, really hard to support our children while she doesn't and therefore we are effectively also supporting her. The new music lessons are all her idea and while we of course would like to give the children every opportunity we just can't and I think everyone has to accept that. (for the record my DC don't have these lessons as I can't afford them and that apart from these all the children have had access to similar sorts of after school activities.) As for school lunches - I have suggested that we contribute on the days where we would have had to provide lunch but she is not happy with this.

Ok it was ramble but if any one has any thoughts or you feel we are being unreasonable fire away! Thanks.

I can totally understand your husband's. It's emotional blackmail basically (IMO).

His ex is very fortunate you both pay for as much as you do. To take child support back to it's basics, it is to pay towards the daily costs of the child, including bills ... food ... clothes ... school/extra curricular activity fees. The whole point of the reduction for the amount of time they stay with you is that all the extra costs that come with the children then they are with you, your husband funds. Obviously including the child benefit and any tax credits she might receive for them.

You cannot afford the extras and it's down to your husband to decide whether he can put his foot down.

Perhaps the mother needs reminding that if he really felt so inclined, he could contribute absolutely nothing extra to the child support amount.

There's no reason why she should be demanding your husband pays his child support and then half of all other fees on top of it. Again in my opinion, others may disagree. The school lunches, I think your offer of paying for days they are with you sounds fair.

Your husband pays for rugby and judo. She can pay for the music and choir lessons. Sounds fair? Or perhaps if she wants him to pay half of the music/choir lessons, she should start paying half of the rugby/judo lessons and equipment costs.

I don't think you're being unreasonable at all but can see how it is a tough thing for your husband to sort out without being made to feel like he is being unreasonabl.

I hate this sort of mean minded emotional blackmail: "He feels that any financial support that he refuses is an indication that he doesn't care for his children".

His older children have TWO parents - who should BOTH be responsible for supporting them. If she wants "nice to have" activities rather than necessities) she needs to fund these herself instead of demanding more from your DH then accusing him of being uncaring if he dares to decline.

Clearly, he is far from uncaring - both in practical and financial terms. Why should only two out of the five children you have together be favoured - why are they any more serserving of "nice to have" stuff ?

He really has to say no. It's grossly unfair if he gives in to requests you literally can't afford. Presumably you would then need to cut corners in other areas, which could affect the quality of life for you all. I'm not surprised you feel resentful if that prospect is looming despite you working long hours. IMO, the 1st rule of family finances - and that includes paying for absent children - should be that everyone's needs - not wants - are met. Then, and only then, can niceities be considered, but any disposable income should be divided out equally.

Next time she starts with the "uncaring father" guilt trip, perhaps it could be pointed out to her that 10 weeks holidaty a year (FFS !) would pay for a good wedge of music lessons. I think the fact she can afford to go away for so long is indicative of the fact that, by the sounds of it, you are already paying for most of the children's expenses ..... clearly she has money to burn.

Thank you for your replies... You are right it is emotional blackmail in the most subtle of ways. I also feel that we need to have a 'policy' now as the children are getting older and there will be new things around the corner that will come up.

My problem is giving him the confidence to 'stand up' for us / him - he agrees with me when we discuss it (I am so supportive of my DSC and would do anything for them so he knows I have no other motive) but gets beaten down when discussing it with his EX.

An example...recently it took many emails /conversations to get her to buy the kids school shoes (her turn!) in September - she didn't buy them any summer shoes (so they wore winter shoes right through summer to school - although we had summer shoes at ours) and she finally relented although stressing that she would not be "bullied" into buying them shoes! My DH finds this very stressful and wants to buy them but knows that she has to take some responsibility. However the emotional stress on him was immense.

I need to give him the confidence that to stay no to her is not being uncaring to the children - my problem is how. Of course it would not be such an issue if money was not tight but the strain on us financially as a family and the disproportionate work ethics makes it a major one.

He has mentioned splitting the costs of extra activities but she is reluctant - there is a surprise...

We are looking at 50% sharing which would be great for many many reasons including financial but she is not keen to discuss.

Why don't you sit your DH down and work on a budget? ... List everything that comes in and everything that goes out. List clearly how much goes on which child. With the facts clearly written down on a piece of paper it might be easier for him to stand up to his ex when the issue comes up for discussion.

My Dad always used to say that you cannot reach into a naked man's pockets ... but your DH needs to understand that first before communicating it to his ex.

You are right...we are desperately in need of sorting out a 'proper' budget based on each child etc as I in particular prefer a fairness to what we offer to them all.

I think it will make it easier for him to stand up to his ex in a rational way if he clearly understands where we and all the children stand in the monthly out goings...

In fairness maybe she just presumes that he can afford more than he can (as we have a large (if run down!) house - our choice so we can accommodate all the children) - yet the reality is that is where all our money goes and he has taken only 6 days off from work in over 17 months and needless to say no holidays away! Still she is not privy to our monthly out goings and maybe she just makes assumptions that he has to this point not discouraged - enough!!!

On a side though - I do find it difficult when the dsc are with us and they say things like "Mummy said that you (as in DH) need to get our hair cut and get us new trainers this weekend." It is one thing asking your ex to provide these but to ask the children to ask I feel is just wrong!

she sounds completely unreasonable

I believe maintenance covers food and clothing therefore you and your DH should be careful that you're not paying double the amount you should be.

As for other extra curricular activities the agreement reached on my divorce was that these costs sould be shared, however both parties must be in agreement first, i.e. you have to agree (and I do understand this puts your DH into a guilt inducing situation) before the expenditure occurs, and if you are not in agreement and she goes ahead with the activity she should foot the bill herself.

don't feel bad about standing up to her demands, you have every right to refuse a 'nice to have' activity if the money could be spent better elsewhere and especially where the other children are not getting these extras

OK on another note - if we were to have the dsc with us 50% how does that work - anyone know roughly what the 'guidelines' are?

We are assuming that DH will pay no maintenance then and that we will receive one child benefit and have one child added to our tax credit file?

Other than obviously increasing their time with us (we are hoping to do a week on week off type set up) and the associate costs with that - everything else will be split 50% - as in after school activities and school trips - which is how we are anyway. Does one parent then take responsibility for one child to buy school shoes / uniform or does it work better that once again it is just split 50 / 50 - how do you sort this out...?

We are really keen to make this arrangement happen as we feel the children will be more settled having a longer period in one place rather than the twice weekly swap over. DH also feels that his relationship won't be so based on cramming everything in a over weekend - there will be more time to get in a flow and relax. He has worked really hard to be a constant and supportive part of their lives and feels this really will be a positive move.

We know the ex isn't keen because of the drop in income - yet she is happy to go away for three weeks on holiday (with minimal contact with the kids during that time) so she can't really say she doesn't want it to happen because she wouldn't like to be away from them for any length of time! - so what is the next step...

mrsjammi - it does my head in too!!!!

As I am also in the situation of having children with an ex (who pays maintenance) I feel I have a pretty good grasp on what is acceptable and what is not.

50/50 does not mean no support. Officially, the parent who receives child benefit gets child maintenance, based on the other parent's income (and obviously reduced by the number of overnights ... though it never goes to zero). So with the ex earning much less, she'd pay less.

As for the voluntary 50/50 split of extra activities etc. ... you could have that now, couldn't you? You don't have it because DH doesn't stand up to his ex and simply stop paying the extras. What makes you think he'll stand up to her then? He still won't be able and willing to let his kids go without.

Hmmm still a bit confused re the 50 / 50 things - other friends who have this arrangement - work it where for child benefit / tax credits each has one 'resident' child that they claim for and then there is no maintenance paid as each parent is responsible for the 50% of the time they have the children. As for the ex earning less as she is self employed and would not have the children for a week at a time, surely then she will be capable of earning more?

Does anyone know where there are suggested guidelines?

My DH will stand up to his ex (eventually ) - we are just extremely busy at the moment (he is a Director of a large event happening this weekend - so he will have more mental space soon) and so he hasn't been able to find the energy to properly discuss this with her. It is just easier when I can help him get the facts so he can be less emotional. These extra demands just seem to creep up on us...and his knee jerk reaction (to everything at times it seems!) is to not say NO!

Your dh sounds like he is being very reasonable but his ex thinks she can just ask for more, and more, and more. You could be right about her assuming that you have lots of spare cash as you have a bigger house. You need to let her know the reality! Agree about working out a budget as well.

zazas, whilst your friends are doing the reasonable thing (which is what we did when we still had a 50/50), I don't think this is the legal norm.

Provided you get a 50/50, you'd have to apply for one child benefit ... and the ex would probably not let it go just like that. So expect resistance and weeks and months of waiting.

If you are successful, then yes, you'd get the benefit and all the things it comes with. However, you would be still liable to pay maintenance for the one child she holds the child benefit for (I think at are reduced rate of about 9%). Admittedly she would be liable to pay DH maintenance for the other, but given her income this would be much less.

Now, being an artist it probably won't matter how much she works ... people either buy her stuff or they don't. She will continue to use her argument that during her weeks she needs to be there for the kids ... and it is highly unlikely she finds a job for every other week only.

This means that her income will be even less than before. This shouldn't really be your concern, HOWEVER, I very much doubt that she will contribute 50% (if anything at all) to shoes, uniforms, etc. etc. She will merely say she does no longer have the money.

What to you think your DH would do then? Buy the stuff for HIS child (i.e. the one he holds the benefit for) and let HER child go without? Not buy the stuff at all?

What I am trying to say is that no matter what scenario, she is going to manipulate him, and if he doesn't stand up to her then there is no point in changing things.

That seems crazy that you have to pay for the children when you share 50 / 50? Is it only because he earns more than she does? So I assume that if it was the other way round then the ex would have to pay?

I know that my DH would then rather pay the equivalent amount in the after school activities (i.e. pay for them 100%) than still pay maintenance.

Yes I can see her using that argument re working and earning - yet her complaint is that she does not have enough time to do her art at the moment - so she couldn't really say that if things changed? Although I also have friends that make it work - where the mother works one week 8 - 6 (50 hours) and the other week 9 - 3 (30 hours).

We are aware that her income will be less but as we pay for pretty much everything anyway (except 1/2 of the music lessons) it won't make much of a difference and of course we would buy for both

Has nothing to do with who earns more ... both parties would be liable to pay ... it's just that she would obviously get more than he would from her because he earns more.

There is no way he can get out of maintenance if she claims ... and I guess she would. Well, he could counterclaim, but do you think he'd get much more than the obligatory £5 for HIS child?

Thanks for the info, I will work it out to see what it might be out of interest... However the 'money' is not the reason we would like the children 50% of the time so it isn't a deciding factor. Plus he would never not pay...

At the end of the day there is only a limited amount of money sloshing around that has to support all 5 children - we don't want any of them not having what they need (shoes / equipment etc) it is just bringing me back to my OP it is all the extras that we need to come to an agreement on.

Oh dear such a minefield of emotion and I am only assuming that it gets harder as it gets older...

Basically with 50/50 split care, child support is still payable. The CSA for example, do not have a cut off where if each parent has the child for half the year, they stop paying maintenance. (It's ridiculous)

So if there was just one child, the parent NOT in receipt of child benefit could still be forced to pay child support to the other parent if they have 50/50 care of even if they end up having the child over half the year for whatever reason ... as long as the other parent is still claiming child benefit and refuses to give it up. (Again, it's a ridiculous rule)

As there are two children in your case, you could apply for child benefit for one of the children. It goes down to their discretion, on who to pay the CB to. She wont likely be willing to give it up, so like KaPe said, expect a fight and it taking time.

Then if she insisted, she could still continue to claim child support for the child living with her and your H could then claim for the child living with him ... and as she is Self Employed, she could easily fiddle alter her accounts so you were getting the basic £5 a week child support off of her whereas you could be paying a lot more for the other child.

Really, it's going to need to be a "put your foot down" situation for your hubby. x

Wow I had no idea it worked like this - we just assumed that it was an even split - that would make sense you would think!

You would hope that we can sort this out where it is better that we all take responsibility for the children and what they need and not get into a situation where you have to hide your earnings so you can take more from the other parent. My DH is self employed but he would never 'fiddle' it so he has to pay less.

I bet this situation leads to all sorts of problems - who can pay the least... Here is hoping to a rational discussion about this with the ex and the hope she looks at the 50% agreement not based on what she is to loose financially but what the children are to gain from this arrangement.

Good luck Zazas.

You only have to look on some of the online forums dealing with CSA issues to see there are a LOT of non resident parents out there willing to fiddle their income figures to pay a measly amount for their children when they can afford a lot more ... and also a LOT of resident parents who are eager to take advantage of the CSA's bad judgement when it comes to some of their rules, and claim extra money off of the non resident parent when they have equal care of the children.

Sadly, a lot of the time, it comes down to money and not the children's interests in the forefront.

The other thing to consider is that the rules for Child Benefit are discriminatory. If there is no agreement between the parents then Child Benefit goes to the parent with whom the child spends the most nights. If it's 50:50 then (again, absent mutual agreement) Child Benefit automatically goes to the mother.

Given your DH's ex past history regarding money do you really think there's much chance she'd willingly give up a proportion of her income?

As far as I am aware it goes to the person who applies for it. My ex (male) had the child benefit from the day our daughter was born because he applied for it. Being unmarried I seem to remember that I had to sign something back then. But that was 9 years ago.

After our separation we originally had a 50/50, and as far as I am aware my chances of getting the child benefit would have been minimal (even though I AM the mother), simply because historically he always had it. When the 50/50 stopped I had to apply for it and give reasons for my counter application (ie. that DD now stays full time with me). It only took about 6-8 weeks, I presume because he didn't protest. I know of cases though were this process can take ages.

It's very unusual that a father applies for the child benefit. Normally the mother does if still in a relationship, something to do with National Insurance contributions being paid when in receipt and being the one earning less after baby is born ... I can't remember where I heard that or if I have made it up! lol

So although Dad can apply for it, it's normally Mum ... then if they split, if there is only one child and they have 50/50 care or Dad has kids more, some of the time, Mum will refuse to give it up or split it.

When ther are two children it can be easier.

Had your ex not agreed to give it up KaPe you could have been fighting for a long time, like you say.

Obviously it works both ways if Dad has it for whatever reason and decides not to give it up/split it!