Is it just inevitable that DSD will be a compulsive liar/narcissist because her Mother is?

[Dramatic]

DSD is 12. I have been in her life since she was just turned 1, DH and her Mother split when she was a couple of months old after he found she had been cheating on him throughout her pregnancy.

I have three older daughters and me and DH have a daughter (8yo) together.

DSD has had behavioural problems since she was about 3. Over the years she has lied, stolen, made awful threats, hurt people frequently, purposely destroyed/broken other people's things etc. She has spoken a lot about how she wants to hurt people, saying things like "I'd love to be a police woman so I can shoot people" "I'm going to stab you one day". She is a bully at school and has caused at least two children to actually move schools because of her behaviour. We have tried all sorts to stamp out this behaviour but nothing has made any difference whatsoever. She cries, apologises, says all the right things and then does the same thing the following day.

One of the hardest things to deal with on a day to day basis is the lies, she will lie about everything. Big things, small things, things that don't even benefit her. We have tried ignoring it (for an extended period), researched what to do and none of it has worked.

One of the main problems is that she is with her Mum 50% of the time and her Mum is exactly the same, lies all the time and is really quite a horrible person.

At this point I am about ready to give up and just accept DSD will always be this way and there's absolutely nothing we can do about it. I feel like I'm in an awful position because my children are being affected by this behaviour but if I was to leave my younger daughter would be visiting DH and having contact with DSD without me there. DH is at his wits end with DSD too but obviously there is no way he can just stop seeing her. I don't know what to do, I don't even know what advice I'm looking for really, has anyone else been in this position?

So, she's had behavioural issues since she was 3 and she lives with a mother who apparently lies ALL THE TIME.

Is it possible that her behavioural issues are the direct result of a shit home life? If we assume that what yu say about he rmother is true and that you and your DH are the stable "normal" ones, then what have you done to get her away from this shit situation? Have you attempted to get more custody? Reported to social services?

Speaking as someone who is watching a child in a similar situation and who spends a lot of time worrying about how and if to intervene and it's not even my child, I appreciate it's not that easy. But it seems to me that if she has a shit home life and upbringing then yes, it's very unlikely that she's going to find things any better as an adult.

Of course, shit upbringings are also even worse if the child has challenges of their own such as ND so that's also a consideration.

Her Mother isn't necessarily abusive or neglectful towards her, if anything she spoils her and will not hear anything bad that's said to her about DSD, even when coming from the school. But she will have witnessed her Mum lying and treating other people like shit. DH went through the court system and the absolute max they would give was 50/50 which is what he has.

Pity. It's good thatyour Dh fought for more. The problem is spoiling her isn't helping her either, obviously.

It's difficult to say if there coul dbe ND as obviously, in light of her home environment, it could be pure behavioural. Have you considered ND at all? When she's aplogising and crying, do you feel it's real or is it manipulative?

What are the school or CYPPS doing?

I think it is pretty inevitable that she will become more like her mother at this stage. She has the genetics and the environment that encourages her to develop in these patterns. That is how this stuff gets transmitted intergenerationally children have to adapt into the environment they actually grow up in not some utopian environment that they don’t exist in.

It is very difficult but her father still has a responsibility towards her so I think you just have to figure out a very boundaries and positive way of dealing with her going forward that protects your DSD and your own children who are not the adults in this situation. Have the relationship you can have with her not the one you’d like to have with her.

It’s not inevitable. I had a mother like that and after going through a similar very bad phase I came out of it.

She will be feeling destabilised and unsafe. If you want to help you need to create calm and safety for her with clear and fair boundaries, help her develop things like self esteem and non confrontational conflict resolution. You will likely need professional support

Don’t give up on her please ❤️

The lying will stem from her feeling destabilised. She’s trying to create her own reality that only she controls. That’s why it will be what seem like the most pointless lies as well as big lies

How old are your older daughters? Do they live with you full time? If so, it must be hard for her to be at your house as she probably feels like she doesn't really belong/fit in (as she's the only one not living there all the time). So she's got one home with a Mum who lies all the time, and another with 4 step/half siblings. Most kids would struggle with that set-up I think?

Thanks for all the replies, to answer a few questions; my older children are all over 15, they have always had contact with their Dad so DSD is not the only one who doesn't live here full time (although my older two don't have as many overnights with their Dad anymore as they have jobs/social events now) plus DH works away when DSD isn't here (week on, week off)

DSD isn't left out of anything at our house, she's come on every single holiday, we always make sure she's here for things like putting up the Christmas decorations, birthday parties etc etc.

ND has been considered and discounted (by professionals). When I say we have explored every avenue, we really have. School haven't done a lot tbh, she was almost permanently excluded from primary but they kept her until the end, she is now in year 8 and has had suspensions and behaviour tracking in year 7.

Epigenetics and environment play a huge role, as you’re finding out.

Your household needs to have very firm expectations, boundaries and consequences.

At 12, does she want to spend more time at yours or her mum’s? Most SC tend to pick a home at this age. I’d follow her lead whichever option she chooses. If she wants to spend more time at her mum’s, well, it makes your lives easier.

Has ND been assessed thoroughly? Has this girl had a professional autism assessor actually conduct the ADOS assessment following exact NICE guidance. I will guess the answer is no.

This post jumped out at me. I'm not the stepmom. I am the biological parent. And a narrative very familiar to yours is well underway about me. Every attempt through the NHS to get my child assessed was blocked. Other parent was part of that blocking. So you could say ' well not Autistic because the random doctor who looked for 5 minutes said so'.

Eventually, we paid for a thorough assessment which had to be private. My child is very ND, various conditions. Fully diagnosed.

You have this and then add the traumatic experience of being between parents behaving like this ( mum blaming), then you get what you described above.

I understand we have a need to believe a narrative to justify our behavior. We all do it. I do it. Please try challenge the narrative in your mind on this. 🙏

Yes. She has been fully assessed and did not get diagnosed with anything. I can't see how you'd read my post saying we've explored every avenue and tried all sorts and conclude that means we'd block any sort of assesment that might start to explain some of these behaviours.

Also why on earth do I have to change the narrative in my own head? I don't slate her Mum to her, I've made the effort to be as amicable and nice as I possibly can to her Mum so that we can have a united front. Are you seriously trying to blame me for this?

I used to be like your DSD. I used to lie all the time at home (but never elsewhere) because I felt I was punished (psychologically, emotionally, sometimes physically) for telling the truth. If she’s quite an upfront / tell it how is person and you or dad have ever punished her for it that might be why. Alternatively if you as a family ever believed your other daughters over her when she was telling the truth that could also cause it.

Material differences between your daughters and her that make her feel insecure / anxious could also cause it. Seeing you and dad favour your kids (even normal mum behaviour) at home could also cause it. As you’ve been around since 1 your role and behaviour in her life is as crucial as Dad’s.

Her mum lying is neither here nor there because she spends 50% of her time with you and by your own admission shit. If the experiences at your home showed her being honest was worthwhile she’d use them. Right now she, in your own words, is being ‘spoilt’ by a mum who lies but treated in a way at yours that causes her to want to lie.

She’s only 12, there’s time to fix it, but you will need some kind of family therapy.

I must correct how my message conveyed that- my intent was definitely not to accuse you of blocking. This was a reflection of my own situation.

I see difficulty in so many situations where there is 50/50. Kids need to align almost with the values and ways of the family. When they're flitting between two like this, it is really destabilizing.

I appreciate that is nobody's fault. I don't know the answer to this problem which I believe is old as time. Mum's raising kids not biologically their own. It is always going to be fraught with problems. It is a biological imperative to reject.

I'd be wondering about attachment disorder here OP if this has been going on since 3 and being ND has been ruled out. What was her mum like with her when she was a baby? Do you think she could have been emotionally/physically neglected?

I've only worked with one child who was diagnosed but the huge need to control everything, lie, be destructive and terrible behaviour is typical IME. It just rang a few bells and you said mum was horrible so might be worth considering.

Do you/your DH agree with the outcome of the assessment, OP? It was obviously a concern since she was assessed…

Are CAMHS involved (children and adolescents mental heath services). If not I would ask your GP to refer. It may not be neurodivergence but it sounds like maybe mental heath could assess too. Sounds like you could do with some help (not patronising just acknowledging how hard blended families and child mental health can be)

Yeah I think it's quite accurate. She doesn't particularly have any ND traits.

I hadn't really heard of this but after googling I think you might be on to something, she does fit a lot of the criteria. I'm not sure what things were like when she was a young baby, DH hasn't ever said anything particularly bad but obviously there was stresses going on in the family at the time

Has the mum got a new partner / any other children?

Yes, she's with the man she had the affair with (DSD doesn't know they had an affair) and has one older daughter who is 16.