Mother taking children out of country without permission

[chinup123]

I was just wondering if anyone has any experience of this and any advice.

I ideally don't want to give the back story here as it could be outing but what are parental rights on this one if the other parent chose to take children out of the country permanently against the other parent's wishes.

In brief no court agreement, but 50/50 arrangement that has been in place for many years without any particular issues. DH on birth certificate and children share his surname but not hers.

In the past when DM has taken them on holiday DH has not needed to provide any permission and she's been able to do so without any issue. Obviously DH was fine with this but she didn't need to ensure she had anything formal in place. Whilst when DH took them on holiday he needed a letter of permission, copies of birth certificates etc. When she applied for passports DH wasn't required to be part of the process, but when DH renewed the passports he had to go to the nth degree to prove he was actually their father. Previous trips abroad have always been with both parents being happy with this so it hasn't been an issue to get these permissions but there seems to barriers in place for DH but not for DM.

There is a worry that DM could decide to do this and the fact she did not have any barriers in place beforehand increases worry that she could do this without needing permission from DH.

Parents don't have rights.
He can look into going to court to demand his ex gets his permission to give the kids a holiday, if he thinks that's in the kids best interests.

Sorry to clarify, I don't mean for a holiday. I mean to reside in another country

"There is a worry" on whose part and for what reason?

www.gov.uk/permission-take-child-abroad www.gov.uk/permission-take-child-abroad]]]]

If your DH is worried for a reason, then formalising the current arrangement would be the first step.

You need to get a court agreement in place as this will automatically state that the resident parent can only take the children out of the country for a maximum of a month (without the need for permission from the non resident parent) with no court order she can take them and it would then be a fight to get her to move back I would think! Defo easier to get a child arrangements order in place asap.

It is always a possibility for both parents that they could be stopped going across the border. I always take a copy of our birth certificates and court order.

Who made DH jump through the hoops? DM is likely to have more paperwork linking her to the children but DH will still have the birth certificate.

If he has serious concerns of her taking them abroad to live then he takes her to court to prevent this.

He would need to goto court to apply for a prohibited steps order to stop her taking them out of the country to live given he has 50/50 contact now it should hopefully go in his favour.

Worry on DH's part. As said in post, I don't want to go into the reasoning too much but there are legitimate reasons for that concern.

When DM has took them abroad previously it was with DH's verbal permission and she didn't request formal permission and she didn't have any issues at borders with requiring proof she had permission, she might have taken BCs with her but I wouldn't know, I assume she would as she doesn't share surname so would have been wise. When DH took them abroad he got those formalities in place to be on the safe side, DM didn't make him jump through any hoops. Previously both parents have taken children abroad for holidays and its been without issue on both sides.

There is a reluctance to go to court because I fear there would be push back from her and DH is concerned he would lose the current 50/50 agreement he has. But we have discussed it could be the only option if his fears are legitimate

Technically she needs his permission unless there's a court order saying that the kids live with her.

The fact she hasn't asked for it or it hasn't been requested by authorities doesn't mean it's not required.

We never got asked by authorities to evidence that DH had DSD's Mum's permission to travel, but we always had it. If DSD travelled with her Mum she always had her Dad's permission in writing. The same rules apply.

If their Mum took them abroad on holiday without their Dad's permission it's technically kidnapping.

I know people will say you can get a court order but at one stage DH had some of the top lawyers in the country instructed and was told it was highly unlikely he'd get a court date before our planned holiday because the family courts are inundated with urgent cases where kids are at risk. DSD's Mum had known about the holiday for months and agreed to it, but just kept refusing to provide the written permission.

So doing everything amicably as you are is probably best all around, and best practice would be for Dad to email Mum written permission (which she technically needs) before she brings them abroad on holiday too.

If your DH is concerned she'll move abroad with the kids he needs to get the current arrangements formalised asap.

How old are the kids and how long have the current arrangements been in place?

If the current arrangements are long standing a court is very unlikely to change them, DH's divorce lawyer apparently kept impressing on him that he needed to establish as many nights as possible with DSD because if the 50-50 pattern was well established a court wouldn't upset it. (It hasn't been 50-50 in years for other reasons, DSD lives with us and visits her Mum)

Kids are pre-teens. And existing arrangement has been in place since they separated approx 8-9 years.

Things have been amicable for the vast majority of that time, but largely because DH toes the line. There's always been a risk that if the apple cart is upset that DM would withdraw or reduce contact which is the fear if we went to court as she'd probably have an aversion to that, and especially if she thought it was being done to stop her from moving kids abroad if that is her plan.

Court, then.

I was stopped going to Egypt as my son has a different name to me. Showed a court order and birth certificate and was fine.

When you say pre teens, how old exactly? Is there a real concern ex could move abroad or is DH pissed off that he isn't treated the same way? Proof can be asked for any time but obviously in our society the Mum is almost always an active parent in the DCs lives whereas many Dad's abandon their DC so it is more reasonable to check when Mum is not there.

If 50-50 is a long established pattern that's working my understanding is that the courts will likely formalise that - this was the advice DH received at the time of his divorce. If she takes them abroad without permission it is kidnapping (assuming you're in the UK) and your DH can use The Hague Convention to get them returned, but simply going to court now to get the agreement formalised would seem far more sensible if he has valid reasons for his concerns.

Has he spoken to her about her intentions? If she's eg French that in and of itself doesn't mean she'll uproot the kids and move them to France (with a significant risk the French courts will order their return). If she's eg Australian and very lonely, lacking support and often talking about moving home it's a risk she might take, especially if she doesn't understand it's likely an Australian court could order they be returned to the UK.

Step 1. Would be to ask her, and if she insists she can move them without his consent step 2. would be a solicitors letter telling her that she can't. But by that stage the temperature might have risen sufficiently that going to court wouldn't make things any worse and could only make them better by giving your DH comfort.

You need to get a formal child arrangements order via court. If you have an established 50/50 pattern then that is very unlikely to change. However, you can also ensure she cannot just take the children out of the country permanently. What country is it?

Why would the courts remove the 50:50 arrangement.

If there’s real concern she is going to live the kids abroad he needs to go to court.

The concern the court may decided he can’t have 50:50 is either an excuse or there’s a valid reason 50:50 would be stopped.

There is genuine concern about her taking them. Its not because he is pissed off he wasn't treated the same. Like someone said, I would presume there to be less questioning or suspicion of a Mum taking DCs abroad without a father present than if a Dad took them away without a Mum present which is why we have took precaution with taking written permission in the past.

Thanks, we will look into how to formalise the arrangement through a court order.

I think the worry is applying to court would upset her and she could push back/get nasty if she chose to. Especially if it was going to upset her plans. There is no grounds for getting nasty but she has done previously if DH doesn't go along with everything exactly what she wants

Neither my DH or his ex have been asked for any documentation of confirmation of permission from the other parent when taking my DSD abroad. We have always gotten permission via text just in case but it's never been needed.

If you know the ex is planning to take the kids out of the country permanently he needs to apply to the court to stop it.

You have two choices then. You get something formal in place and risk pissing her off or you don't and risk her moving away with the kids. Unfortunately when you're dealing with an unreasonable person or a parent who thinks they should always get their own way, there's always going to be some kind of conflict.

I'd take the risk of pissing her off and get a court order in place. It will help to prevent further issues down the line as well. If he's have 50:50 for a while it's likely the court will grant that as they like to maintain the status quo is the kids are settled. Unless there's good reason to reduce contact with dad then 50:50 will likely be granted.

Parents who try to take their kids away from a loving and involved parent, especially against the other parents will are vile.

Contact the charity Reunite. They have an excellent and free legal advice helpline

If you know what country she would want to move to, it’s worth checking if they are a member country of The Hague Convention. If so, the police in the other country would search for the kids and send them back as they recognise that the kids are residents of your h’s country and removing them permanently is kidnapping.

Or you can do what the bitch of an OW did to me when my then DH and I split.
Tell the Immigration service they are a kidnapping risk and she will be stopped and questioned for the paperwork.
This was done to me and it is beyond annoying. I flew recently without the DCs for work and got asked why they were not with me, was I at my home sorting out the house etc for them to come over. Stupid thing is I am always questioned when I come back into the country - (ffs) not when I leave and get this - their DF is the foreigner not me!