Do you force a child to like the new partner

[wildfish]

Curious. If a child does not like - thats too strong - is not closely attached or does not want to form a bond yet ---- do you force the issue or do you let it happen or encourage it?

DS is 4. ExW has just got married (a touch quickly in my view - 3months after meeting) and yesterday DS didn't want to go out to her car to say hello to her new H. Eventually he did, but shouted hello and ran back in. (DS wasn't well either - throwing up).

She stormed off. Today DS didn't seem pleased to see her, and she said (after taking DS aside) "Is it because you were naughty yesterday, you were very bad. You hurt me. etc etc" And then proceeded to tell me how I was blocking it, how I was brainwashing him, how I was .... usual evil one .... She told DS off in the past for not liking a toy her new DP bought for DS.

I find it quite annoying, and I think I would only gently encourage or talk about, but not tell him off about it - its new for him too, just cos she is in love doesn't mean he has to be already.

But seeking a sanity check here - in case I am way off the mark.

Hi Jammi:

I'll try to fill in,

[when did he gain the ability to be allowed to refuse to go to his mums so that this pattern was allowed to develop??]

Simple. At first it was done, but this resulted in refusal to go out with her (kept falling for tricks first), then refusal to stay at place, fighting kicking screaming - she gave in when it was lasting over an hour and a half. I agreed as it seemed no point in making him do it when it was more than just a whim. His emotional development and social development has been truly affected outside of home.

He put up the fight for 3 months aged 2 1/2 last time, before she gave in. It wasn't just a quick decision.

[more than happy for him not to overnight with his mum]
Hmmmn, initially it set back all my plans too! But now its just a case of if he wants to then its fine with me.

[i assume school doesnt start until september]
Scotland, August.

[how is a 4 year old (or two year old) suppose to verbalise any of that] Agreed - except through behavioural issues.

[she is his mother, she has remarried, she has a right to see him - and overnight at that - and i am surprised she hasnt been through the courts]
She can do that, but since I am not blocking it, all she will achieve is the ability to make a judge, force me to force my son to leave and stay over there. If that affects him badly - who wins? Even she doesn't want it done by force.

[the courts and cafcass felt that good contact with both parents was beneficial ]
She would probably end up with less than she has now then, she gets to see him every day, mornings and evenings, and gets to take him away 2x weekday evenings and 1/2 of weekends - I think I would get some days with no her then.

[am not so sure that the staff at his nursery class as professionals in matters like this]

They class as professionals in so far as they have seen how everything has impacted his development. They have concerns about his social interaction. We have a child psychologist coming to see him too. The only people who agree with rocking the boat at this time are her friends. Other professionals I have asked (sanity checked with) agree with me.

Put simply its a case of
Boy is advancing once again, don't upset the development vs risk making him crawl back into shell by forcing him to stay overnight

[sorry to sound harsh but .....]
You are you are .

Seriously I have never blocked her access. I also put up with her ridiculously casual time keeping - coming late to pick up DS, short notice of alterations (oh I decided to do something else blah blah blah). I take him round there because she wouldn't wait here for 5minutes if I was delayed back from the shops. Her marching into my house and thinking she has the right to treat it as her own - all so DS didn't lose his relationship with her. But I will not force him to go over night, until he is ready. And I know the difference between a child saying no no no, and really pleading and begging don't send me. He says no to going out with her (at times) yet can be made to. He says no to eating veggies, he says no to going to sleep sometimes. But when he says no to staying overnight he means absolutely no (its probably the most definitive no he does for anything)

Jammi : I can't see how forcing him to be distressed will help him to be honest. He was impacted last time round. It seems folly to force another round that may set him back again. What good would it be to risk another set back, as he starts school, so school is started miserably too, home is miserable. Surely better to let him start school happily, settle there (it is for the next 7 years) and then start pushing again. He put up the fight for 3 months aged 2 1/2 last time, before she gave in.

If the roles were reversed I wouldn't force him to stay at mine, I would attract him as much as possible, but not force him ever, but never give in. (If she moved away or blocked me, then I would go to court). I don't believe anyone would benefit by making a child unhappy and insecure.

The argument we have over staying overnight is when to push harder: I (and others agree) say wait till school has started. She says now now now. She also wants a 7 days on and off starting now. She also wants him to wait in after school care (because she wouldnt be able to pick him up straight away) on "her days" and has refused to let me or grandparents (who would be minutes away) pick him up on those days, since "its up to me how I look after him on my days and you are not going to get any extra time than me" - this is for a boy only doing 4 half days nursery to getting a full day at school.

sufermum: Do you mean about the partner issues or the overnights?

I have previously asked about overnights in Lone parents. But this question originally was about new partner.

I just think she has the wrong approach (not that she would ever listen to me) in trying to force DS to love new StepDad. He doesn't dislike him either, but I am sure the more she puts pressure the more he will fire back. And telling him he is being naughty for not doing everything seemed harsh to me - but that's why I was asking sanity checking.

Well, WIldfish - Whether or not Jammi is harsh..... I DO think you are getting a much easier time than a mum would have in this situation..........

You do seem to be confusing your DS's behaviour with your own (For instance, do you really expect us to believe that a 2 1/2 YO is thinking: 'oooh... get mummy, walking into Daddy's house and acting like she owns the place'... Far more, he is picking up on your own fears / insecurities...

I do also think it's telling that you won't force him to stay overnight with his mum.... Again, I reckon that the child is simply picking up on the fact that you won't MAKE him and therefore he doesn't have to do it.

I'm going to go out on a limb here (and probably get shot down in flames, but here goes: )

My dog seriously dislikes two things:

1. Sitting on his bed when he's wet and
2. Travelling in the boot of the car

I have no problem with him being coralled to his bed unti lhe's dry, but I do get upset at him travelling in the boot of a car.... Guess which one he really plays up over? Yep - because he bloody well knows that if I'm in sight, I'll probably 'come to his rescue'... Yet, if I'm not there, he'll happily travel in the boot (for my DH for instance) without issue....

OK, I'm rambling but the point is, if your DS gets upset at handover times, then it's p to you (AS THE PARENT) to MAKE him go and make it as easy as possible for him. If that means you not being there, then so be it.

I'm not doubting that your DS plays up, I've no doubt it confuses him etc., but if he obviously has a good relationship with his mum other than the overnight visits, then I'd say he's more worried about upsetting / losing you than he is about overnight visits per se......

As for your original question: No, I don't think you can force a child to love anyone... Parent / family member or step parent... But from what you've said since, his mum is being really accomodating.... I think you might find that, were you a mum in a similar situation, you might well have a court order demanding you send your son to see the other parent overnight.

Have you considered counselling since your divorce?

youcannotbeserious:

[2 1/2 YO is thinking: 'oooh... get mummy, walking into Daddy's house and acting like she owns the place']
No he loves it. I don't like it, he does. But now I'm told to wait in the car when I go to pick him up. Even if I ring the bell, I get abuse.

He may realise I won't force him, but then again I have to consider his developmental issues. For 3 months it was tried, and frankly not only did it fail, but it caused him huge issues. Plainly obvious to anyone who knew him.

[might well have a court order]
And in that case I would have to comply. I simply want it to develop from a bond, rather than a chore, rather than forced issue. I genuinely believe forcing is not the way to achieve a good result. More important for me is his well being.

[counselling since your divorce]
for who? me?

I'll add another piece of information.
She has twice planned to move away with him. First time her family support disappeared. Second time DS stopped staying at hers. Perhaps he had overheard her plans on the phone - he does listen to a lot? I only found out about the second plan a year later as she was threatening me a third time!
I am prepared for her plans - though court-wise. I don't carry that much weight with DS to tell him how to think.

She has also now said no more talking to her. Only texts and email comms.

[and probably get shot down in flames, but here goes]
From who? hehe I'm the one getting shot down. First time I've seen so much opposition to my position from anywhere. And as far as I know its the same info!

I have to emphasise that his refusal to stay overnight is not a standard refusal. He says no to a lot, he didn't like showers, he didn't like haircuts, he would scream and cry, but could always be persuaded - eventually he lives with them (doesn't like but accepts). Sometimes he doesn't like nursery either, and once again normal persuasion can work.

On his overnight stays -- he cried, screams, fights, refuses, gets highly upset. 3 months never made it less, it got worse. Since then I won't push it. I probe it, I check to gauge how much opposition there is.

The day trips he was opposed, but that has reduced. I can see his opposition is there, but its not as deep, so normal handling of a no situation works.

Interestingly your (both) views that maybe he should be forced borders on his mums view - except she wants me to do the forcing (not her at all). I do however want to understand, and reconsider my views. So please don't take my rebuttals as a refusal to listen - I genuinely am listening.

It was the same with discipline (when we were in the same location but divorced), she would demand I discipline, so I would then she would rush in and say "awww is bad daddy being horrible, come to mummy". She would say she doesn't want to discipline him, in case it ruins her relationship.

Not sure why I'm reading this thread really, as I'm not divorced/separated and I don't have step-children! (Displacement activity, probably!)

But I have read it with interest and mounting concern about your child, wildfish. I know it must be a terrible thing to go through, so do apologise to those who have/are doing, but surely the needs of your child are paramount? Never mind what your partner(s) or the courts might think, if your son is unhappy then you should not be forcing him to see your exW in the way that she seems to think would be appropriate.

I don't doubt that you are projecting some of your own negative views on the situation, but if your son is this upset and your exW is as inconsistent/unreliable as she sounds then I would step back from it and only allow the situation to go at your son's pace.

And now the MN collective can shoot me down in flames instead ...

how was it that DS came to live with you again wildfish? am I right in thinking it was because at the time your x wanted to do her own thing, wanted to get everything else done and settled before having DS back again, and now after this time is wanting him back?

in answer to your first question no I don't think you can make a child like/love a new partner. and tbh your EX should not be forcing the issue with your son, it's not fair on him, esp as he seems to be quite a sensitive little boy anyhow, I can understand your worry over that. to be fair DS is prob picking up slightly on your apprehensions re the forcing of him with the new partner, but the mother is going about things in the wrong way.

tbh if the roles were reversed and you were talking here in a mothers role with the x being the dad who was doing this with his child, I don't think any of us would question that things should go at the childs own pace. You need to do what you both feel is right for your DS.

Re the coming in the house, I would hope that she doesn't still do it - you need to have boundaries there that she knows she can't come into your house, after all in my mind what's good for one is good for the other.

Possibly your DS is worried about you leaving as well - after all if you've been the consistent one in everything it's not going to help things. so he will get clingy etc.

I know you say he won't sleep anywhere unless you're there, but how about trying him sleeping at grandmas house - I know it's not his mums house, but am thinking by way of him getting used to sleeping else where, and will hopefully get his confidence up so he knows you will be back for him in the morning?

finally re the 7 days thing, I felt at the time and still do given the current situation 7 days with each of you isn't fair on your DS, nor is keeping him in after school care if you're able to go and get him. it's about finding a balance that works for you all. i'm not sure what the courts would do about access etc tbh esp as you're under the scottish systems.

not sure i've been much help, but I personally feel that a child needs to feel safe and secure, & basically not forced when it comes to these things but then again apparently i'm too soft with DS according to XH - is that why he's happy when he's with me then and not when he's with XH??

also tbh it sounds to me what's shes doing re the discipline etc borders on manipulative, that sort of thing will basically get DS playing you guys off of each other, you need to show a united front where discipline is concerned. XH and I still do it now even thou he's only here every other weekend.

biwi - I totally agree, this is how I do things with DS anyhow.

I actually agree totally with wildfish. She can't just fuck off then come back, throwing her weight around and demanding unconditional love and having a bratfit if she doesn't get it from a four year old little boy who isn't even four yet.

She sounds like a selfish spoilt madam and seems to have no consideration for what is best for her son.

I wouldn't send him overnight. Not at all. Why the hell would you upset a child like that? What is it with "X was really hurt when you didn't like his present" bullshit anyway? What is she trying to say to the poor little thing 'Placate my husband's ego or feel my wrath!'

tell her you are going to wait until he stops getting hysterical at the mention of going to hers overnight

Phew. I was getting worried there that I was being unreasonable.

DTM:
[I know you say he won't sleep anywhere unless you're there, but how about trying him sleeping at grandmas house]
Its the chicken egg situation. He has a good relationship there, but no one wants to have him upset so he stops going day time there. We've all tried the joking come and stay here, sleep here tonight etc, but he gets quickly into no way, I am out of here mode. So no-one forces it. Again though it is my strong belief it will happen when he is ready and sure about things.

[too soft]
Oh yeah, get that a lot, but ironically I am the strictest too. They just don't get to see all the times you say no no no .

SC:
lol, sometimes I wish I did do that.

BIWI/DTM/SC:
Its probably my fault, the lack of boundaries. When we got divorced, I helped her find a place, arrange the finances, budget things, buy things, install things (electricals etc), I've helped her a lot over the last two years. Far too much that its embarrassing admitting how much. She barely admits I helped (always screams what have you ever done for me), but has once admitted I helped the most (incl her family). I did it so DS wouldn't feel upset, minimise the impact, make him feel comfortable in both places etc, she was DS mum, and a fellow person in need. (Boy do I feel dumb now). As she has stood more on her own, the more agressive she has become.

Now sorted out job, profession and love life, she is coming to sort out son - those were her words.

She has said yesterday that I am "no one to her, other than DS dad", "and no more communications with me", also threatened me that she will block me taking DS anywhere away for a few days. (all in one day). Then she expects me to help her - which I at the moment am confused about (at this particular instant) - doing the right thing in principle or doing the right thing for her behaviour. I try to stick by what's right for DS, but it seems to cause me more grief.

I hope I don't get flamed over this, but this story from Star Trek Voyager always sums up her in my mind. Its the only logical explanation I have for her behaviour at times. (No I am not calling her murdering scorpion , just she does things and seems oblivious )

Chakotay relates a story from his childhood:

A scorpion was wandering along the bank of the river, wondering how to get to the other side. Suddenly he saw a fox. He asked the fox to take him across the river.
The fox said, "No. If I do that, you'll sting me and I'll drown."
The scorpion assured him, "If I did that, we'd both drown."
The fox thought about it and finally agreed. So the scorpion climbed up on his back and the fox began to swim. But halfway across the river, the scorpion stung him.
As the poison filled his veins, the fox turned to the scorpion and said, "Why did you do that? Now you'll drown too."
"I couldn't help it," said the scorpion. "It's my nature."

jammi: excuse me if i have the wrong person but as a step parent I do admire you and the support you have given to your partner and step children. Hope to find someone too with that attitude

[what are you going to do if he decides he doesnt like school??? allow him to refuse to go there are well,]
of course not. He hates nursery, says its 100 excuses, but he is always persuaded to go. Even in the peak he has been persuaded (took me 30mins once - while getting late for a meeting!) But he does go. Its very hard to explain how deeply he does not want to stay overnight there. I can think of a 100 potential reasons, but no definitive one. (Trouble is ex is the mother and therefore naturally knows best, and I am the dad and therefore don't know anything, so I can't advise).

You wanted to the kids for the kids sake. My ex ......

Our original plan was shared custody. Or at least that was my plan.

wildfish has your lo stayed overnight with other people for example grandparents, anties etc etc

Hi Wildfish.....

In response to an earlier question, yes... I did mean counselling for you. IMHO, you still sound pretty angry about it and obviously harbour some pretty negative stuff... I'd put money it was she who left / wanted to leave.......

No-one is saying you are being unreasonable for wanting to do what's best for your child but (as a step parent and having seen this from the other side) I agree, it could be implied that the issue is yours and not your sons....

With the risk of sounding harsh here, I would love to hear you say to a judge that one reason you think your DS might not like the idea of sleepovers with his mum is that he's heard her 'making plans' on the phone....... FFS!! He was 2 1/2!1 This is RL!!! Not Hollywood's remake of "Wildfish! The youngest PI in the West!"

(Sorry, really not being flippant, but YKWIM!!!)

Believe me, this is NOT because you are 'the dad' - I reckon if a bio-mum had come onto the step parenting board and posted something similar, she'd be getting a MUCH harder time.

As Jammi said, if this does go to court, the other parent would almost certainly be awarded overnight visitation and your failure to 'force' your son to do it could mean it actually looks like you are interfering with contact.

IMHO, what this child needs right now is for his two parents to agree what's going to happen and stick to it

Oh, Another thing I meant to add:

As solicitors are involved and mediation is a possibility, could ou not consider a contact centre for the 'hand over'

(LostDad has more experience of these - so if you see this, LD, please comment if you think it's a terrible idea! )

That way, your DS's behaviour could be monitored and his refusal to go with his mother noted (as all you have right now is your own accounts... just an idea!)

not sure why I've just read this thread either...

I think if the op was a mum talking about her ds's reluctance to go to his father's she would be getting a lot of sympathy, and would be told that the children should be allowed to go at their own pace. Also if it was the father they were reluctant to go to then the statement would have been made which I'm going to make now...

Why is a 4 year old so reluctant to stay with his mother? Why, since the age of two, has this child resisted being at his mother's house, both during the day and overnight? What goes on there that has caused his anxiety?

If this was a woman talking about her ex husband people would be questioning why the child was so reluctant to be with their father.

I find it very telling that this child's mother did not take him with her when she left. Nothing would stop me taking my child if I were to leave my marriage, nothing, and ime most women feel the same.

She cannot have her cake and eat it, if her walking out has affected her child this deeply, then she can't simply ask for him back now that she's in the place she wants to be.

she sounds like a spoiled bitch tbh.

Sorry wildfish just found your post from page one that said he won't sleepover anywhere atm

agree with wannabe totally.

you need to get to the root of why DS won't go with his mum over night,

rightly or wrongly, she can't give him to you then expect him to come back. I don't know how the courts work, but i'd suggest you get those balls in motion and get some things written down in legal terms.

is it possible your DS has some anxiety/abandonment issues - after all, tbh I feel if a dad leaves a child the mother is still there, who is 9/10 the main carer. so althou it's a rocky time usually things come right, if the mother leaves in my view there's nothing worse than being abandoned by your mother. maybe there's that chucked in for good measure? but am just speculating here.

I understand you guys who have been on the other side of things and seen that aspect of it, but with all due respect you don't see the fall out after which the 'resident' parent is felt to deal with.

youcannotbeserious:

Yes she left. no I am not angry at her for leaving - grown adults not compatible - she is the angry one. I am angry at the moment as she shows no regard to DS's well being. She would rather take the chance and well too bad if it goes wrong "how was I to know that" will be the words. Yes I am annoyed at her priority list, work, professional quals, love life and then DS????? Her list. If thats the priority list then bog off.

As for the reasons, I have said I have no idea why. I only said perhaps he overheard, as it was exactly that time he stopped. I don't know what happened over there. I was speculating here on the boards, I would not speculate in front of a judge. There must be a reason, but I am not privy to it. There could be another set of complex reasons, but I don't know what they are. I can guess, but never assume they are facts.

As for going to court, if she wanted to then I am ready for it. I will do whatever I can to protect DS. If the judge awards 50/50 or reverses current situation, I will have to accept it obviously. If the judge awards limited contact overnight, then so be it. It would bring some order and stability. At least I can ignore her on non contact days then!

I know you are from the other side, but believe me, I am not trying to stop her seeing DS - I could easily have brainwashed him during this time by now, instead of bending over backwards to maintain it.

WB: Your sentiments echo many others sentiments even when I defend her, e.g. "she had to get on her feet etc". I was told by another divorced mother, "so did I, and I did it with my two children".

ER: yep, no-one yet. He almost was ready to sleep over at his cousins, but he added at the last moment "and you dad sleep on the floor". Hence why I think he is growing up, but let it happen at his pace and not force it.

youcannotbeserious:
I view it like swimming. You could chuck you child into the deep and hope they naturally learn to swim, and not hate it, or you could allow them to get comfortable in the baby pool at their own pace and move when they are ready. I know my DS and he is a grower from stability not a grower out of chaos.

Like I said, I am no expert - and I appreciate all kids are different!

I suppose I was brought up in an environment which was 'like it or lump it' - maybe that colours my judgement!

You know your son... I'm only speculating..

But I will say one thing: This, as it is, is likely to get worse, not better, IMHO... Let us know if you get anything sorted with your Ex.

The root of why: Don't know how to find that out. Unless he says why, which he is either unable or unwilling or doesn't know yet.

During the time she has been away, she has intermittently tried to attract him. (Thats when she is not distracted - I am being serious other things distract her). These phases last a week to two weeks, before dissipating.

after initial forcing and tricking.

1. Accusations I am manipulating and to stop it.
2. Replicating his room, item for item.
3. Bribery by buying lots of new toys and stuff (for a few days)
4. Emotional pressure : "mummy is lonely"
5. Bribery by promising toys for sleeping over
6. Attraction when family visit -"come and sleep with xxxx"
7. Attacks: Daddy is boring. Daddy house is boring. (he said to me "Dad I want to stay at your boring house")
8. Mediation now.

Sorry youcannotbeserious, solicitors are not involved yet - directly (maybe behind the scenes? I don't know - speculating again). Its mediation at the moment. She has said she will not go to court, but I suspect because she thinks mediation are going to back her. She tried to railroad all of that into one week too!

WB: In truth she is quite a manipulator and a good show of the flood of tears on cue. One meeting and you'll all think I am from the dark side. She told me (before she found anyone) she didn't want any new parent being called mum, mummy, mama. Then a month before she got married she was busy telling DS that a new daddy was coming, and tried to get him to call new DH dad, daddy, and said to DS that DS can now stay over at hers as he has a new daddy.
She backed off that idea when he said he wanted a new mummy at Dad's house.

And honestly my anger is only at the fact that its always about her, her plans, her schedule and not about DS. It would be great if she cared about DS as much as herself. I would be at peace, DS would be happy and we'd only be fighting about I had him for 4 hours and you had him 4 hours 20mins. [joke on my part, for those who think I am being serious]

It seems to me wildfish that you are the only stability in your DSs life. You have to do these things so slowly. You say that your ex wife got married within 3 months of meeting the new partner, I don't think that this is realistic with a DC. I went out for 2 years with a separated man (marriage over before I met him), it was very difficult for his 10 yr old daughter. I took the view that the daughter mattered most as she was the DC and we were adults. I took it very slowly, to start with I didn't see him when he had access and gradually I built it up until in the end sometimes I saw her without her father and we had a good relationship. When we split up she wrote to me and said that she hoped it wasn't her fault which I thought was very sweet (it wasn't).You need to explain to ex wife and new DH that they have to build up the relationship slowly, they can't be an instant family. I know that it is easier said than done as her track record is poor so far.Could you get an outside mediator? (I got a bit confused with all the messages so I hope I haven't got it all wrong-in which case ignore me)>