DSD still distressed often at handovers plus other issues.

[ThisMustBeMyDream]

Dsd is 5. Nearly 6. She has never known her parents together. They went together at the time of her birth, they only dated for 3 months when her mum dumped my DP.

I met him when dsd was 7 months old. They were already at mediation as her mother was making contact incredibly difficult. Mediation failed and they ended up in court.

5 years later and he is still having to go back to court regulalry. Currently on case number 5 as there have been many breaches, and the order has needed tightening up many times. Mum wants to minimise contact (she'd prefer none!). But that isn't happening and she isn't happy about it.

So the current issues are that dsd is still often distressed at handovers. She always has been on and off. Not all the time. There have been months when she hasn't been, but more times than not, she cries. Even when it is just a 2 hour weekly going for dinner to a restaurant contact.

So as soon as DP gets dsd in the car and drives off - she stops. Once mum is out of sight, the tears and tantrums cease. Never been any different. Now she is older he asks her why she is upset. She tells him that it is because mummy will be upset that she is gone.

She has also started saying that mummy says I don't have to come here if I don't want to, she will never make me.

Obviously this is something we have long known. It is no surprise to us that mum says these things, or that dsd reacts in the way she does.

We know we are on course to have dsd refusing to come and probably listened to before she hits high school.

My question is - how can we stop the inevitable? Cafcass and social workers have picked up on this, but as they do - they won't finger point. The last s7 talked about how dsd was reluctant to talk about dad at school or when the cafcass worker saw her at home, and how she told school she didn't have a daddy. But then went on to say "it may be likely that X is already feeling the impact of conflict, whether this has been unintentional or a deliberate attempt by a parent to undermine the relationship with the other". They must be able to see what is happening. They have labeled it as emotional harm (obviously). But no one really does anything about it... it just makes it sound like tit for tat, which it really really isn't!

They are back in court next week for a first hearing regarding tightening up the order for holiday contact and passport handover after an absolute debacle this summer. Cafcass not required. So it feels like DP can not bring up the issue. What can he do? Does he ever stand a chance of someone stepping in to recognise and address this properly?

I’d say he needs to bring it up.

How does one bring it up without being accused of being negative, or bringing petty disputes to court? Genuine question. So many times it has been "courts want solutions not problems". It feels somewhat impossible to be listened to.

It's tough because she's not old enough to really articulate her feelings and have a rational discussion about it.

She may have real and deep reasons for not enjoying spending time at your house. I don't think her mother is wrong in refusing to force her to do something that is distressing her, or saying things to reassure her. But without being privy to their conversations it's impossible to know where she is on that fine line between being supportive and being manipulative. I wouldn't leap to blame the mother for how the girl is feeling though, unless you have other very good reasons to.

I think the best approach is to be calm, consistent, available to DSD. Be delighted to see her but respectful of her feelings. Stop asking her about it, it's a lot of pressure on her. Find ways to connect with her without her being physically present, so the relationship can continue if she goes through patches of avoiding visits.

I hate to say it, but you may need to record her visible distress and then how quickly she calms down as soon as her mother is out of site. Also record her answers about what "mummy says".

This is just going to continue to happen.

DP says his experience is court want solutions not problems too. As cafcass are not involved this time he feels he is going to be on wrong footing to begin with if he is bringing an issue up at court. His position statement is focused on the reason for the case -.holiday contact, where he has offered proposals to improve the current issues. What can be propose to stop her mum using her as an emotional crutch essentially? 🥴

What can be propose to stop her mum using her as an emotional crutch essentially?

Try being constructive and child-centred. How about suggesting both parties seek expert advice on how the contact schedule and handovers can be done in a way that best supports the girl and minimises her distress?

Lots of 5yos are still crying when they're dropped off at school or holiday care - they just hate change and being out of their comfort zones. You're going to look incredibly combative if you show up with recordings trying to prove it's all the mother's fault.

I’m not sure her upset can be purely based on her mum alone. Slightly different but the same ish.

My youngest cry’s every morning going into school she doesn’t want to go, she’s sad, her tummy hurts, she wants to stay with me, she misses me. Shes not being picked on or anything I’ve spoken to the teachers.

She’s fine once she’s in the class room and I’m gone though and I’m sure as hell not wanting her to stay at home with me all day. I’ve got work to do and house work and I explain I’m doing boring stuff nothing fun without her. I’m telling her how great school is and playing with her friends and what’s cool for lunch.

When I asked for an actual meeting with the school because I was concerned maybe there was an additional need issue or something they just said at 6 it’s pretty much considered normal for some kids and she just has a great attachment to me and I’m her safe space so she feels sad at leaving me in the mornings.

obviously the mother could be saying things to make her not want to go as well but sometimes children just don’t want to leave their mums full stop apparently 😅

She isn't saying she doesn't want to leave her mum though, she is saying that mummy will be upset when she isn't there. It's a big difference. I 100% understand as an experienced mother of 3 that children can find leaving a parent difficult and upsetting. This isn't that. She is happy as a pig in muck when she is with us.

No one is turning up with videos.

They have had expert advice on the best way for transition, which is 3rd party handover but her mother has consistently refused this and court won't force her. It is well documented that handovers should not be by mum (there's been assaults on DP from her and her mother, screaming, shouting abuse, swearing in the street from her and her mother and her previous partner) but the court can't force her. So we can chose between no contact or mum does handovers. She won't suggest anyone to do the handovers, and she won't allow anyone else to collect. It is stalemate.

He can suggest it yet again. But we know the likely outcome is as above. It's exhausting. She uses the fact dsd is upset as a way to try and stop or reduce contact in court, but it doesn't work. We just go round in the same circles.

Her mother is emotionally abusing her;she's being raised to be her mothers emotional crutch;she's only five and she's being emotionally blackmailed into feeling guilty for wanting a relationship with her dad which is her right.

Mum is obviously thickly laying on the heat,"you don't have to go to your dads" "mummy misses you when you're at daddy's" "you don't really have a dad";no child that young tells people she doesn't have a father without it being put in her head.

It sounds as though her mums behaviour makes her anxious about being dropped off with dad and that's likely the source of the tears.

I don't know what her mums issue is tbh;they dated very briefly;it makes you wonder if the mother was only looking for a sperm doner and maintenance.

Well done to your DP for pursuing contact under such conditions.
Make a note of what DSD says and when and your observations on how transitory it is.
If it's not a part of your next court date, don't bring it up.
In terms of how you address it with DSD I would acknowledge her feelings and sympathise but avoid a conversation about Mummy or Mummy's feelings. Acknowledge that living between two parents can be difficult for everyone, but you're really happy to see her.

I can’t speak to court process or any of those things, but thinking about it from a father/daughter relationship point of view, and looking at it from the long view, I thought the poster who suggested finding and building up ways of being in contact with her whilst not being physically present, so even if she refuses for a few months/years the relationship can continue.

I know she is young now, but a screen time call during the week? Texting (or emailing) every morning or night (just one or two) between them? Making it so Dad always drives her to and from her art class/ netball practice? Or Dad always turns up to her netball games (and has coffee/lunch afterwards?) Even watching a favourite tv show together on the telephone (separate but on the phone together).

A lot of these are for an older child, but if you establish a routine or connection with the special thing now - eg Dad always helped me with netball, attended my early games, it is natural to continue to do it all through the teenage years. Ditto with a tv series or hobby or something.

It is well documented that handovers should not be by mum (there's been assaults on DP from her and her mother, screaming, shouting abuse, swearing in the street from her and her mother and her previous partner) but the court can't force her.

This is shocking. If this was a man attacking a woman at handover, I suspect a third party would be prescribed.

Credit to your DH for fighting for his DD all the way. Could he get legal advice about pursuing this as parental alienation?

We used to have that a lot with DSD. It’s so distressing. Lots of reassurance needed that mummy and daddy are adults and she is the child and children don’t look after adults - the adults can look after themselves (I’m sure I managed to put that better to her). I always mentioned daddy and mummy in the hope that DSD would on some level realise she didn’t think to worry about daddy and clock there was some sort of difference.

The stuff your SD is saying is being put in her head by her mother. That woman is emotionally abusing her own daughter and should be utterly ashamed of herself for doing it but women like her never are. They don’t have the capacity for shame. Sounds like all her mother cares about is making your DP’s life and his relationship with his daughter as difficult as possible

They have had expert advice on the best way for transition, which is 3rd party handover but her mother has consistently refused this

So mum is refusing to do hand overs through school?

So each parent picks up and drops off using school were possible. (It helps if the school has an after school club.)

She has that for her older daughter, so I strongly suspect you are 100% right in what she wanted. The question for me is why she thought he'd just go away.
Anyway, that's by the by now. Yes, mum is making her anxious for sure. She is here now, and DP tells me there was a smooth handover this weekend with no tears which is good. Some times she is fine, others she is not. You never know which she will be.

I realise this is from over a week ago, but I just wanted to say I completely understand the situation and how hard it is. My DSD (now 13) was exactly the same when she was younger. If both mum and dad were there at handovers she would have a meltdown, but if dad or myself was picking her up from school alone it was absolutely fine.

We have heard so many examples of the types of emotional abuse you mention over the years; my DSD sees it as her responsibility to make her mum happy. Unfortunately I don't think we have been able to combat this, maybe we have reduced the burden, but my DSD will still do or say anything for her mum.

HOWEVER, we have managed to stop her seeing her dad as the enemy, despite her mum's best efforts. She lives with us now and sees mum EOW. This followed some very lengthy court battles and mum trying to take DSD to live on the opposite side of the country. I think it helped that my partner made sure he always fought for at least 50/50. When cases of parental alienation are found the solution is usually to have them spend time with the parent they are being alienated from. What is your current set-up? Could you try and get more contact? Like the other pp's have said, well done for fighting this far! It's hard, stressful, expensive and uncertain, but it can be worth it! I'm just so sorry there's not an easier way.

The other thing that has helped is DSD finally talking to a therapist. I wish we'd been able to do it earlier, but mum always made DSD feel guilty for talking to strangers about her. Now DSD is older I think she understands the situation more and can see the aim is to help her rather than make it about anyone else. I know 5 is still so young, but maybe you could see if there's someone she can talk to? An independent adult with training in this area could really help your DSD put things in perspective.

I'm sorry you're having to deal with this. It's just awful when mother's emotional abuse their kids and use them as weapons.

My DSD is 4. She cries when mum drops her off at nursery and at dancing. She cried when dad dropped her off at nursery for a short time but that didn't last. Nursery reassured her dad that once she was in she stopped and was fine. Although no longer crying with dad she continued to cry with mum. Her mum stopped taking her to dancing because she was just crying every time. We take her to football training and gymnastics and have never had any problems.

DSD told me that she cried because she misses her mum, but she's also said a few time "my mummy misses me when I'm at dad's". So I feel like her mum is saying things to make her feel guilty about not being with her which is ironic as SD is left with her DB15 loads and left with family members a lot. I believe that SD probably does miss her mum as she doesn't seem to spend much quality time with her.

When we tell her mum's coming to pick her up and she does a delayed and fake sounding "yay!". Her mum is a narcissist and if you know much about that, they tend to condition their children. So DSD knows she's expected to be excited to see mum or expected to be upset at mum leaving so she behaves accordingly. It's awful.

My advice would be to definitely bring any issues or concerns to the court. If you don't then bring it up at a later date they might question that. Document what you can for evidence. Never bad mouth her mother or let her hear you talk about her. Continue to do your best for DSD. She might be young but kids aren't daft and even if her mum is badmouthing her dad if his actions don't reflect her words it'll have less of an impact. Have loads of fun with her and give her the best possible experience when you have her.

It's hard and feels like a constant battle. Just keep doing what you can and keep yourself right.

The invisible string is also a good book for young kids showing separation anxiety. Might be worth a try.

Hi, have you tried contacting CAFCASS and asking for their 'advice'. I know they are more than useless but if you got them to put some information on an email of how they think the situation could be handled. I.e. if you ask how can we make handovers less distressing as DSD is anxious until mum is out of sight they may suggest someone else brings her to handovers and you can then use this information at the next court hearing?

From experience with family court if you can get a neutral third party to suggest something which you can then agree to, the court generally seems to go in your favour.

Maybe you should just focus on reassuring her that her mum is fine without her. Offer lots of support and avoid making this another issue for parents to fight about. The child probably picks up on the conflict between the two families.

This isn't a good idea. Courts don't like recordings and rarely allow them as evidence.

Unfortunately you cannot force someone to co-parent if they won't. The family courts are utterly useless and the whole process fails children. Examples can be very obvious - waived off as parenting differences. My DC is 17 - today happens to be our half-term transition day. The teenager will be unsettled, grumpy, moan at me for literally hours about the parental family. This has been my life for over 10 years. I listen, make hot drinks, sort out snacks, leave them well alone. When it first started for me (and them) transition wasn't recognised at all as being a potential problem for a child. So I followed a parallel parenting path (all of my own devising!) that allowed me to move on in my life, support the child, and ignore as much of the nonsense as I could.