SDs refusals and holiday dilemma

[absolutecarnage]

Girls are 8 and 10, one each. We are pretty much a blended family.

We have been treating the girls on holiday every year but after paying out sooooo much money this year for a U.K. stay we have talked about buying a large family tent and going camping instead of cottage/caravan stays for next summer to try and cut costs.

Me and my partner went camping at the weekend and he did a complete uturn of the idea of camping because he feels like it’s unfair on his Dd (the youngest). She has been scared of everything lately and kind of sulking over things because she doesn’t want to do them, which has taken the enjoyment out of many things over the past year or two. Theme parks for example, we have spend money on theme parks or fairgrounds to treat them both to a day out of fun which they have been excited to do, but once we are there she will flag our refuse to go on anything because she’s either too scared or she just doesn’t want to. It either ends up in half an hour to 45 minutes (no word of a lie!!) of talking her around to go on a ride, or tears from her.

I will just put this out there now, it will be stuff she has gone on before and enjoyed, and once she has participated she absolutely loves it. We don’t push her to go on stuff that is too scary or too old for her. But we will spend half the day on her, either convincing her to go on things rather than actually enjoying the day.

Another example, we took her on her first boat ride last year and it took us about a week to convince her to go on it. She absolutely loved it once she was on it, would not stop talking about it for ages but I know full well of we went to do it again it would be the same situation all over again.

Lifts - same thing. All of a sudden she won’t go in lifts where she has been fine in them before. She is fine once she is in them she almost forgets she’s in one so it seems daft to either avoid them or spend five minutes talking her around to going in one.

Now the camping situation, we raised the idea with the girls and it was rejected from her straight away because she does not want to sleep in a tent. I know full well she will be fine - the girls often sleep in their own tent at home for the night as a bit of fun when they have weekends together here.

Am I unreasonable to think that it’s not unfair to push her out of her comfort zone with this and she just needs a little nudge? My partner is stepping back from the idea now because he believes it’s unfair to make her do something she doesn’t want to do, but at the expense of the family holiday plans and financial plans of course. Please tell me if I’m being too harsh on her!

We had a very similar situation - a combination of DSD (8 years old) genuinely being slightly uncertain about doing some things for the first time, but mostly being encouraged to play us up by her mum, and getting LOADS of attention/wheedling to try and get her to join in on whatever it was...she was basically holding the whole family to ransom...for hours...

Eventually we decided to call her bluff, and gently left her to it without making any fuss "oh that's ok DSD, no problem, you just wait here while we do X/I've got some crisps you can have while we're eating in this cafe" that you're refusing to go into (I kid you not!)...and she eventually worked out that she was the one missing out...

With the camping trip maybe say "that's fine DSD, you can sleep in the car, the mattress will fit perfectly with the seats folded down, so you'll be fine"...as if you're doing her a great favour...

My DSD's learnt very early to manipulate situations to what they thought was their advantage , and the only way to overcome it was to manipulate right back...not how I like to work but then I don't like an 8 year old telling the rest of the family where we're going to have lunch either...

That’s not input, that’s an by 8 year old carrying the veto.

She’s at an age where this can very easily get out of control. And it does need nipping in the bud now.

The park is a prime example. There is no last go, we’ve come as an extra treat, it’s time to go, now. She sounds like a child who if given an inch will take a mile. My DS again can be very like this so whilst it can seem quite harsh me just bluntly saying no, he has to know where the boundaries are, otherwise he cannot deal with it.

And I agree if she completely refuses and it doesn’t affect everyone let her get on with it. For example with the rides she can stand and watch. If both adults want a go she will have to wait twice - without moaning. And if she moans it’s ‘well you didn’t want a go, that’s why we are having to wait’ she will soon get the message.

I am not doubting there may be an element of fear/anxiety initially but the subsequent behaviour and parental response is escalating it to levels it need not be escalated to.

Blendiful speaks sense.
Anxiety is fuelled by avoidance. But if she is genuinely experiencing anxiety then that needs appropriate support.
Giving this child too much influence because your DP finds parenting her a tricky balance to get right is understandable but unhelpful.
Don't spend hours persuading her. Give her the choice to participate or not, encourage her, but if she refuses - then DP waits with her and you and your DD go ahead.
Be kind and compassionate, don't be annoyed with her, but don't let her refusing derail the whole event.

This sums her up exactly.

I’m quite impatient when it comes to asserting my parenting so as for my Dd she has known me 10 years to know that when I say no it means no and when I said now it doesn’t mean in ten minutes. She’s very accustom to this so a bit of back chatting and she does try it on occasion but she gives up and because she knows full well what the outcome of ‘right one more slide then we need to go’ will be. My SD is intolerable and very protesting to being told one more go. Phone calls to her grandparents five minutes before bedtime will often lead to her naming excuses not to end calls and drag it on for another 20 minutes after my DP saying ‘right say good night to nana now’.

As for the holiday, it’s not that my SD is refusing to go really it’s just she’s pulling a face over it. I’m turn, this has made my DP back down from the idea because he doesn’t want her to be unhappy. So yes she has the control in some way, but only through him.

Why was this thread temporarily deleted by admin?

@Themadcatparade

This sums her up exactly.

I’m quite impatient when it comes to asserting my parenting so as for my Dd she has known me 10 years to know that when I say no it means no and when I said now it doesn’t mean in ten minutes. She’s very accustom to this so a bit of back chatting and she does try it on occasion but she gives up and because she knows full well what the outcome of ‘right one more slide then we need to go’ will be. My SD is intolerable and very protesting to being told one more go. Phone calls to her grandparents five minutes before bedtime will often lead to her naming excuses not to end calls and drag it on for another 20 minutes after my DP saying ‘right say good night to nana now’.

As for the holiday, it’s not that my SD is refusing to go really it’s just she’s pulling a face over it. I’m turn, this has made my DP back down from the idea because he doesn’t want her to be unhappy. So yes she has the control in some way, but only through him.

Why was this thread temporarily deleted by admin?

Why have you had a name change?

I name change frequently due to fear of saying too much about the kids and work etc and someone putting two and two together.
I have friends on here. Nothing wrong with that, I don’t feel there’s anything wrong with this thread either

I think what other people have said already makes a lot of sense. treat her with love and kindness, welcome her into the family as is her right, but dont pander to her above everyone else. She has to learn how to fit in to the larger family and that she is loved and cherished, but that its not all about her - her needs dont trump everyone elses. If she tries this stalling, emotional blackmail / tantrumming and delaying tactics, then she has a chance to think it over and change her mind, but then you move on smartly. The quicker she sees the demanding behaviour is not rewarded, she will change her tactics. Shes getting attention and a sense of power and importance from getting her own way above others all the time, and its going to feed an egotistic and selfish approach. Its also really not fair on your other daughter.

@Themadcatparade

I name change frequently due to fear of saying too much about the kids and work etc and someone putting two and two together. I have friends on here. Nothing wrong with that, I don’t feel there’s anything wrong with this thread either

I understand the need to name change, I do it to. It’s just… in the middle of a thread? Seems futile as it links your two names but your choice obvs.

@Beamur

Blendiful speaks sense. Anxiety is fuelled by avoidance. But if she is genuinely experiencing anxiety then that needs appropriate support. Giving this child too much influence because your DP finds parenting her a tricky balance to get right is understandable but unhelpful. Don't spend hours persuading her. Give her the choice to participate or not, encourage her, but if she refuses - then DP waits with her and you and your DD go ahead. Be kind and compassionate, don't be annoyed with her, but don't let her refusing derail the whole event.

Thank you.

I do work with lots of children with anxiety and so many people get it wrong by backing off and pandering to issues, usually from a good place, thinking they are helping but it makes it so much worse!!

Anything anxiety fuelled or any kind of MH problem with an element of anxiety needs careful support and management but it also needs an element of challenge. Otherwise it escalates and actually make it worse. The only way to improve is to overcome, and that requires pushing, out of that comfort zone. There is obviously a limit and not going from 0-60 but it will not be resolved by allowing her to avoid it, or to create a long drawn out process over it. It only fuels the feeling that there is something to worry about. And makes the problem worse.

@IDontDrinkTea

Maybe I am misreading your post, but it sounds quite attention seeking to me, and it’s working as every time you spend a great deal of time and attention persuading her to do things. I’d just stop, and if she says no then fine she misses out and can stay in the car. She’ll soon get bored

I agree with this. I would stop spending hours persuading her to do things, that will only fuel the behaviour.

She sounds very much like my DSS so I totally sympathise. But yes, I do think you should go ahead with the camping holiday. It's hardly going to be a better idea to shell out on a more expensive holiday she will also behave this way on. It will be a good opportunity to practice pandering to it a bit less.

I’m sorry but I stopped reading at the point your DP said he thought they should go somewhere with more kids around to ‘take their minds off being in a tent’

What kind of madness is this!

I would find it very wearing, you’re a better woman than me!!

Really astonished me to see people describing this as attention-seeking.

It suggests very clear signs of an anxiety disorder to me and the child’s parents need to seek psychological support for her. A psych will also be able to help with advice about strategies to support her when doing new things.

It’s really incredible that so many parents first thoughts are ‘attention seeking’. I hope in reality posters would actually seeks a professional review of their child before leaping to this conclusion.

I agree with pp’s that coaxing her round is probably just dragging it out. If she didn’t want to go on the rides I would just say really cheerfully okay you wait while we ride, see you in a minute. As she isn’t actually scared she’ll eventually realise she isn’t getting anything out of waiting about and she’ll want to join in.

It does sound like she wants reassurance though, is there any way her dad could spend a bit of one on one time with her? Maybe if she gets her fill of attention she’ll feel more reassured and settled.

There is a child dealing with anxiety who needs help. Her parents should be pursuing therapy for her.

A holiday should be planned with everyone in mind. Camping makes many people absolutely miserable. I wouldn’t impose that on a child truly anxious about the trip. There are other ways to have cheap recreation. You don’t even have to travel, you can even do a holiday at home and play tourist in your own city.

Tbh this sounds a bit like my own DD is when she's overwhelmed so I don't necessarily think it's a step family issue.

It's like it all gets too much for her and the excitement turns to anxiety. It's been worse since the end of lockdown. We went for a day out at a small theme park place and she didn't want to go on any rides yet in Disneyland 18 months ago she was upset at not being tall enough for the scariest ones.

First time back at soft play she didn't want to go down the slide she's been going down since she was 2.

Tbh I just accepted it and tried not to make a fuss. I've said to her that after doing nothing for so long it's okay not to be sure about things and just to take her time and do it when she's ready. I was planning on going back to the soft play a few times to see if her confidence builds up over time

@Blendiful thank you for your input this is really helpful and may be worth relating back to my DP. It does make sense that the more we make allowances the worse we could be making this.

SD refused to eat at one point, it was simply because she wanted to eat what she wanted (as in sweets and ice cream) and would be so stubborn to sit with a plate in front of her and hide food under the table. Same with brushing her teeth, for about a year she would blindly refuse. It delayed bedtimes, trips out, or day because it was every morning every evening and every meal. My partner spent so much time trying to discuss with her and giving her 50 chances than just putting his foot down. As soon as he started to realise that he was letting it happen and stopped pandering to her, it stopped.

She eats great and is fine with brushing her teeth now but it was a year of hell and impacted everyone, think them both being late for school almost every time she stayed.

@snowwhit3

The confidence and anxiety issue is a confusing one to truly understand, because it’s like she can switch it off like a light. At the minute, it seems to be either she is in the mood to participate or she’s not.

@Kanaloa yes I’m trying to encourage it as much as I can. We have dedicated time for both the girls now, and their schedule is mixed more so my DP and/or DP and myself have time with her without my DD there. Saturday afternoons are scheduled for him and his DD now, as per mid week contact where it used to be all four of us, now it will be either the three of us or just my DP and SD. Funny thing though, when my Dd is not here, she will sulk for a good ten minutes initially when she finds out she’s not here! There is literally no winning it feels like in a lot of situations (this isn’t aimed at just SD, my DD can be similar at times) and it feels like we are just two parents trying our best to please everyone at times. I think we need to start accepting more that simply can’t please everyone and that’s the way life is, especially in our family situation. It’s difficult when you just want to make everyone happy though isn’t it!

[quote Themadcatparade]@Blendiful thank you for your input this is really helpful and may be worth relating back to my DP. It does make sense that the more we make allowances the worse we could be making this.

SD refused to eat at one point, it was simply because she wanted to eat what she wanted (as in sweets and ice cream) and would be so stubborn to sit with a plate in front of her and hide food under the table. Same with brushing her teeth, for about a year she would blindly refuse. It delayed bedtimes, trips out, or day because it was every morning every evening and every meal. My partner spent so much time trying to discuss with her and giving her 50 chances than just putting his foot down. As soon as he started to realise that he was letting it happen and stopped pandering to her, it stopped.

She eats great and is fine with brushing her teeth now but it was a year of hell and impacted everyone, think them both being late for school almost every time she stayed.[/quote]
I am glad it is helpful. I think when people think ‘therapy’ for anxiety they picture lots of intense sessions and a ‘miracle’. It’s not. There is no magic wand, there are strategies and almost certainly any therapist for anxiety will not tell you to avoid or change the thing the person is anxious about. They will encourage you to tackle it, with support around. But not too high a level as the person has to experience some fear of the situation and do it anyway to realise the anxiety wasn’t warranted.

By all means if it continues do seek help too. Children’s mental health services will be able to help. But waiting lists are very long and she may or may not meet the criteria. School may have something she can access quicker.

But tbh I do think this is at a level where it could be managed or improved at the very least, at home. With a different approach. Some people are just naturally more anxious and how they are approached and parented can either help or hinder that.

And I don’t mean ‘I’m scared of spiders’ to then chase someone with it or put it on them etc that would traumatise some people. But gentle encouragement and not pandering to the on-going moaning/whinging/talking about it. Helps.

My DD when little would not eat anything!! She ate only yoghurts for about 2 weeks and very little else and would gag at most food put in front of her. She was a poor eater until about age 12. But she’s improved and this was by continuing to present her with different stuff and refusing to discuss food or listen to the ‘I don’t like it’ or give her any attention for refusing or trying to persuade her. She was simply given it. Met with ‘ok’ or ‘that’s fine’ to whatever she said and nothing more. She soon started eating when she realised eveyrone else was and she was getting 0 reaction to not, or being offered anything else. She’s an amazing eater now! (Some may say too good, see my other post Re keeping her out of the kitchen! Haha)

I think you’re right that accepting that you can’t please everyone all the time is the way to go here. Sometimes sd might be a bit moody, sometimes not, but that’s just life! It is difficult though - I think especially with stepkids who live between homes there can be a pressure to make sure they are having a fab time all the time, sort of to make up for not being together every day maybe.

Everytime a child is difficult someone will suggest anxiety and therapy. Therapy is extremely difficult to access and would not be available for a child who makes a fuss about joining in family treats! She gets lots of attention from her dad when she refuses to join in and this is likely to be reinforcing the behaviour. She doesn't have to do the activities. She should be assumed to be included but when she says no she should be allowed to sit them out without any persuasion or fuss.

Yes, some people are so quick to throw out 'it's anxiety' in response to so many behaviours. Clearly this isn't about anxiety, but about control and a young child having been given the opportunity to commandeer three other people's days. I have a couple of friends with children like this, and have been through the same experience in a theme park etc with them. It was unbearable and I know that if their mum hadn't been there, the child would have been far less challenging as I would not have pandered to her at the expense of all of the other DC's and adults like her mum did. I also had a relationship with a man who's DS was like this, but older and therefore with more honed skills in this regard. He would have a sudden headache or sore leg at any point that he didn't want to do something (not the activity he had chosen, tidy his room, eat a vegetable, do homework) which worked every. single. time and would miraculously clear up as soon as he got his own way. I mean you can't really blame the kids for using strategies that have good results for them, it's down to their parents to, well, parent.

We have this with one child of a similar age. Attention and power. It is very difficult at times. Child is very willful and my DP can be a bit soft but now seeing this behaviour really is not acceptable. Whilst you can try to discuss/suggest with the child, more often than not we get no where. Now, we carry as normal and child often comes round, or just sits and sulks. We gave options and don't let it ruin too much of our day.

I also count to 10 and remove myself from the situation when needed and do something I enjoy.