Birth Dad's Relationship With Children

[cp2252]

Hi All,

Not sure if this is the right section or not, but I'm wondering if someone can help.

Basically, my partner has two boys (6 &9) with her ex husband and the boys relationship with their Dad has worsened to a point where they don't really want anything to do with him. My partner wants them to have a better relationship, because she didn't have a good relationship with her parents growing up, but the Dad doesn't seem interested in changing his behavior towards his kids.

Over the past 4 or 5 months they have regularly come home from his saying that he shouts at them for nothing, calls them names (idiot or stupid), encourages them to do things that they don't want to do (watch 12A or 15 films), uses emotional blackmail (tells them that if they continue to do something then he won't want to see them again), etc. He's even recently used the phrase "well, I don't care what your mum says", when they challenged him on whether a film was age appropriate for them to watch. He used to do most of this when my partner and he were married (which was one of the reasons it ended) and so she was able to keep a much closer eye on things and was able to fight their corner a lot more. Whenever she has challenged him about what's happened, he's denied all knowledge and basically shut her out of it. She wants so badly for them to have a good relationship, but he doesn't want to accept any help, and just gives her lip service by telling her it was a good weekend or that everything was fine. He seems to be quite an authoritarian Dad where what he says goes and that's it, as opposed to someone who listens to their wants and needs, and there just doesn't seem to be any way for him to change with her help. They've had countless 'family meetings' to discuss the issue and even though they all agree to be nicer to each other, and to react differently, as soon as his weekend comes, its the same story again. To make matters worse, he takes the kids to school twice a week and my partner has CCTV to keep an eye on her aging dog at night. She recently reviewed some of the footage of him and the kids, and he was doing exactly what the kids tell her (shouting at them for no reason mainly, calling them names, emotional blackmail). She even showed it to him and he didn't understand the issue, and tried to blame it on them being rude to him.

Having typed all this out and reread it, I think she's onto a lost cause, but equally the kids can't keep having this emotional torture from him, and she's not willing to stop them seeing him. Has anyone been through this kind of thing before?

Thanks

Firstly he's their father not "birth father', like your partner is their mother not "birth mother". The kids are not adopted.

Secondly who sorted out the contact arrangements? Is she telling their father when to have them or was it a more mutual agreement?

This is important as people can tell give your partner tactics to try depending on the circumstances.

Sorry for the wrongly typed term. I guess what I was trying to portray is that I'm not their Dad, nor their step Dad, but their mum's partner. Unfortunately, it doesn't look like I change the title of the thread.

The terms are a mutual consent. He has as much access to them as he likes, however he's decided to limit this to every other weekend, and he takes them to school twice a week. In general, he tries to get out of this arrangement as and when he wants to - probably not important, but just a rant of mine.

Ok so sounds like this guy has issues.

SP is a delicate issue that often goes wrong but it's worth it. Only advice is if one or/and both parents are lacking in a certain area , see if you can be a person that embodies the oppersit with the kids so for example there dad is always yelling at them and calling them dumb, aim to be open, calm and complimentary.

You can't solve the ex's issues but you can be a role model for what a good person or parent looks like and acknowledge that his words can hurt and it's not ok. This is so important. Don't let them think it's normal.

It's hard not to get angry but don't slag off the ex but speak kindly but don't make excuses for ex's behaviour. Example : he's called the kids stupid and they tell you.

Acknowledge that what he said was hurtful, that he/she isn't dumb they are very good at x and that sometimes people are unkind because that's just the way they are and it's in no way the kids fault.

Also get a punching bag for when you would like to smack his face in because lord knows I would be angry too.

Given everything you've said, I don't understand why you're partner is flogging a dead horse.

She's subjecting the kids to the abuse by not putting a stop to him seeing them, as he's abusive and the kids have expressed that. She's meant to protect them. He's just too immature to be responsible, as much as she wants him to be. She needs lower her expectations and protect the kids from his antics.

I suspect he can't be bothered actually doing things with them..so he puts on a film he wants to watch and they have to watch it too. He sounds like a lazy parent who does the bare minimum.

If 6 and 9-year-old boys are watching age-inappropriate films, being constantly yelled at, and are telling their mother they feel unsafe but aren’t being listened to… this is bound to have an impact on their development and on their behaviour. I’m all for working through difficult relationships and I can see why your partner would feel sad about her boys not having a strong bond with their father, but is she truly not seeing anything concerning here?

I think I’d leave it be … once they add 12-1: they can refuse to see their father.

She can't change him. She knows this, because she would have already turned herself inside out trying to fix these things while still in the marriage.

Ultimately her choices are to accept things as they are and support her children as best she can, or fight her corner and try to reduce or stop his access. Both are fraught, unfortunately, there is no easy way to fix this.

Firstly you can call yourself a "step-father" if you are in a long term relationship with the children's mother. As you are a de facto step-parent.

Secondly you can't do anything.

However your partner needs to stop forcing their father to see the kids while at the same time she must not stop him seeing them. She needs to put firm boundaries in place with him. So she needs to keep her contact and communication with him to the minimum. This also means she shouldn't be letting him into her house. If he wants to take them to school he should do it when he has them overnight from his, and all other contact with their father should take place outside her home.

She needs to learn to show their father indifference.

Many ex-partners show their hatred of their kids other parent by trying to control them and argue with them when challenged using the kids as a weapon. So if she shows him that she is indifferent to his actions so doesn't care whether he has contact with his children or not, he may gradually lose interest in having regular contact with his kids.

If she challenges him over his his poor parenting and stops contact, he may fight her all the way to Court for a Child Arrangements Order. As there are no third parties who can vouch for his poor parenting, what he's doing will be regarded as either her lying or "a difference in parenting styles". (You have to be careful using recordings in Court.)

If there is no Court Order it is then much easier for the kids once they reach secondary age or are physically bigger than her to refuse to go to see their dad. As if he then decides to go to Court he is more unlikely to get an Order.

Thank you for all of your advice on this matter, you have no idea how much help you have been. I'm going to try and respond to each point that's been made.

I think the reason that she can't seem to take control of the situation, or maybe not be as harsh as plenty others would, is because of her past, which seems to haunt her in terms that when her parents split, her Mum refused her Dad access. While she was growing up it seemed like the right thing to do, as her Mum would tell lies about her Dad. Fast forward to when she was an adult and she found out the truth and will never forgive her Mum for what she did. Her priority has always been her boys, but with the above in mind, she is quite scared that if she decided to stop access, when the boys grow up, they will hate her for it, the same way that she hates her Mum for it, even with so much evidence stacked up against him.

He is very much a 'PR' Dad in terms that he will post pics up on Facebook of the amazing times they're all having, and his family is constantly commenting about how he is an amazing father, but in reality, it's far from the truth when she speaks to her kids.

With the things that I have mentioned, most of them have been things that have been reported back to her from her children. Unfortunately, the eldest has a history of telling lies, and so it's been hard for her to find out who's telling the truth. The Dad mostly lies immediately, but then through further pushing, the truth (or a degree of truth) comes out. She is mostly inclined to believe her kids though.

In terms of my relationship with their Mum, we have been together for around 3 months and so we haven't approached the subject of meeting the kids or anything like that just yet. We have known each other for a while though, just the kids know me as one of their Mum's friends at this point.

I think that I am going to approach the subject that his behaviour seems like it is abuse and that maybe she needs to think about his access to them, or at least drawing his attention to this fact. I know this is going to cause an issue between us, as we've had plenty of similar conversations in the past, but with the kids in mind, I think this might be the best way to go.

I'd like to thank you for all your advice

@cp2252 clues in the title - I think everyone has their own perspective on things so don't take the harsh comments to harshly because often they are only coming from a very defined lenses. If you spend any time on this thread you will see what I mean. Aka take some comments/nitpicking with a giant dose of salt. People come here to troll as they are unhappy.

Sounds like actually your DP could do with some therapy, not in a negative way but to help sort out some of the underlying stuff that's clearly effecting her now.
Sounds like her ex is gas lighting her a bit and dare I say that's familiar to her. People who experience trauma in childhood tend to feel more at home with trauma in adulthood. She needs to unpick and resow the holes as were.Forming some healthy boundaries is something I'd suspect she shys away from.

I actually think that if the relationship is serious and you at some point will be a factor in these kids lives it bodes well that your focus is on them even now.

As a boyfriend of only three months, the co-parenting between your girlfriend's children and their dad is none of your business. You need to stop interfering.

He’s not a birth dad and you’re not a stepdad. You’re a boyfriend and barely even that at best.

Oh give over. He's clearly new to mumsnet, he probably doesn't realise using the term bio mum or dad is offensive and a reason to be trolled on here. Can we not.

Also ok he may not be "step dad" or near that title but he clearly want to help these kids and was looking for fair advice not people to nit pick. Given this is main complaint of people have of SP is that they don't consider the SC, some of these comments are baffling

He’s 3 months in. It is nothing to do with him. He’s already blurring the lines because he’s mummy’s “friend”.

Hold on if I saw a friend (female) who had children being potentially exposing the children to abuse it's absolutely right that you get involved.

If I saw a neighbours kid being abused I would get involved. That's literally all the abuse campaigns have said.

I just wanted to come on and give a bit more context, as it seems that maybe the basic information I gave as to my relationship with Mum may have confused some people. I'm not even sure this will change some of the opinions, but here goes.

Mum and I have been friends on and off for 25 years, since secondary school. We spent a lot of our childhood together as friends, nothing more, so I was there with her when her parents split and through all the lies her Mum told. We went our separate ways after secondary school, and went off to enjoy our lives (if that's the right way of putting it). Over the years, we kept in contact with the odd catch up email, and Facebook message. When my marriage broke down, she was the first to reach out and was there for me all the way through. Then just as my break up was settling down, hers took a turn for the worst and naturally I helped her through hers. I helped her through the break up and through her divorce, and we have been inseparable since. Over time we found that maybe we have more than a friendship between us, so once lockdown was starting to ease we decided to date, three months ago. We talk about our future constantly and how to approach things with both our kids, but have decided that this should be a slow and thought out process, which we are currently managing ourselves through.

I have seen Mum go through absolute hell and back with her ex partner (Dad). She has tried to shield the kids away from the majority of what has happened, and if you knew what he'd been up to during their marriage, you'd say she's done an amazing job. As I mentioned above, when they split they had a mutual agreement in place on access to the kids. Now he was never been the model Dad during the marriage and he certainly hasn't improved since the break up, but what Mum wants more than anything in the world is for her kids and Dad to have a healthy relationship, and she's willing to try anything. When all else failed with showing him the footage of what he's been doing, and the family meetings to discuss the behaviour, she asked me if there was something she was missing. Why can't this man be a good father, or even just not an abusive father? Why, when it's clear as day that he's the problem, does he blame the children and say that he's the way he is, because they're rude to him? Is there something that can help the relationship between the three of them? That's when I turned to Mumsnet. Maybe it was the right thing to do, maybe it wasn't. I have received some good advice, and some not very constructive advice, but you can't win 'em all.

Now, I'm sure some of you have very busy lives of judging people, instead of giving advice, so I'll let you go back to it. I hope you all have pleasant evenings and have a good week.

@cp2252 I'm really sorry you have felt you had to justify yourself because you have this misfortune to post on the SP thread which people come for support and advice and often get nailed to the floor for it. There are some absolute 🔔 ends on here and some decent ones.

You sound like a decent guy and I'm glad your friend has you in her life in which ever capacity you take.

Speaking as someone who had a incredibly rough first marriage, it's hard to see the wood from the trees. Try to keep lines communication open and just keep posting out in consistencies and unkindness from the ex to both kids and friends in a kind manner - hard when the person is being has lighted.

Try suggesting some reading for her - "the gift of fear" by gavin something something was a gift I didn't know I needed to receive. Have google good luck op !

Sounds a lot like an EA to me. Sorry.

@UpToMyElbowsInDiapers

If 6 and 9-year-old boys are watching age-inappropriate films, being constantly yelled at, and are telling their mother they feel unsafe but aren’t being listened to… this is bound to have an impact on their development and on their behaviour. I’m all for working through difficult relationships and I can see why your partner would feel sad about her boys not having a strong bond with their father, but is she truly not seeing anything concerning here?

This.

The boys are at the perfect age to really be affected by their father’s vile treatment of them and their mother’s refusal to protect them from it.

The way you describe your partner’s motives makes it sound as if her reasoning is all based on what she wants and dreams of - not what the reality is and not what’s best for two little boys. ☹️

You say she left her ex for all the same things he’s now inflicting on her sons. Maybe she needs help to see this? Their dad isn’t going to suddenly become a caring parent.

And please ignore anyone telling you it’s none of your business. Children being neglected or treated badly is everyone’s business.