Ex wife refusing to give her new address & adhere to contact order

[NorthernSpirit]

Can I ask for some advice (from anyone who has been through the same or similar)?

Some background - my OH’s EW wife is highly controlling & difficult about EVERYTHING. They have been divorced over 9 years, it doesn’t get any easier with time. In fact it seems to get worse.

For years she had used the children as weapons, years of stopping contact, years of parental alienation, years of taking her to court to see the kids. Years of her breaching the contact order. The courts slapping her on the wrists and not doing anything.

My OH was meant to have the kids this last weekend but she refused contact (as she had plans - that was the only explanation). My OH now hasn’t seen the kids in over a month. I can not describe how controlling & bitter this woman is. She thinks she’s above the law.

The kids are 12 & 15 - completely controlled my mum. They do as she says.

My OH has requested help from CAFCASS - they won’t do anything as the court order has been awarded.

He also has had social services involved - they just suggested the kids have counselling (he suspects years of parental alienation). They closed the case after suggesting school counselling and politely asking mum not to speak badly of dad and discussing adult issues with the children. They were next to useless.

Ex wife moved house last week (she’s moving in with her new partner who incidentally the first and only time my OH met him, the new partner was highly aggressive & called him a ‘shit dad’ and then threatened to beat him up. This was in front of the kids. My OH called the police to remove him from our doorstep.

EW sends an email the day of the move to say she won’t be providing her new address, her email account is being shut down and she has changed her mobile and will be deleting his (the dads) number. From now on the contact order won’t be used, contact will be flexible & the kids will decide (youngest is 12). Pick ups will happen on a street corner.

So my OH has no idea where the children are living, no way of contacting the mother.

The children do have mobiles - the 15 YO doesn’t contact him (as ‘mummy has told me not to contact you’).

The 12 YO does contact dad (he’s not as easily manipulated) but he won’t give his new address (mummy has told me not to).

There is absolutely no reason for her not to give the new address. It’s a control tactic.

My OH has spoken to his solicitor - apparently there is a huge backlog in the family courts due to Covid and even if an emergency specific issues order was issued today they advise it would likely be 6 months before it went in front of a judge.

Has anyone been through similar? Does anyone have any advice.

There is no reason why he shouldn’t have their address (and know where his children are living) and he wants to keep the contact order in place. He feels a 12 YO is too young to decide contact (for example he was meant to have his 12 YO son on Father’s Day but mum organised a sleepover for him with his best friend so he decided not to come).

Sorry for the long rant…. Any advice would be appreciated. Thanks

Oh Northern I'm so sorry to read you're back here again. I remember your posts from years ago and honestly I think the best thing for everyone would be for your DP to step back. The damage has been done to the kids and at their age he really can't make them do anything and nor can a court.
I think a text every few weeks asking how they are, letting them know he loves them etc. is the best way. Then they will know that Dad didn't just forget about them, no matter what their horrendous mother says . The merry go round has to stop and hope that a period of calm allows the children to reconnect in the future. Which if it happens is going to be awful for them again as they will have realised what the mother has done to them.
I remember she was told before that the children would be removed from her care if she continued her nonsense but I think that ship might have sailed.
It's just shit all round, those poor kids and your poor OH

No advice, but do sympathise. My ex husband, who has residence of our daughter, has just done the same.

Thanks for the message @Youseethethingis

You have such a good memory. Yes - the last time he took her to court for breaching the contact order the judge threatened to remove the kids from her.

It’s so sad. A loving father who wants to see his kids but is prevented. She stopped a holiday once to his parents home (in Europe) - she had been to the house every year when they were married. The day of the holiday (which she had agreed to) she stopped the children going as she said ‘she didn’t have he address’. Oh the irony…..

My OH really does want to know where the children are living (I’m unclear if it’s his legal right but morally - surely he has a right to know where his kids live). These boards are full of posts from women stopping contact because they don’t know where the dad has moved to. Once again it seems that a mother can do whatever they like.

The children are having counselling at school (as recommended by social services) as painful as it will be - i hope that one day they realise what their mother has done to them.

Wow I could have wrote this.

We have been through similar. Withdrawing contact, hiding DD away from the house at handover time and calling the police on DP, partner getting involved, blocking his number on her child’s phone, thinking she’s above the law etc.

The only thing he can do is go to back to court. Record everything, send off as evidence. I’m so so sorry to hear him and the kids are going through this. Absolutely horrendous woman, where do our DPs find them?!!

With the history I would be taking it back to court to get the address, to enforce contact, to demonstrate that the eldest is forbidden from contacting him etc

Most of all to enforce the counselling for the DC.

It’s a tough situation. The children are now at an age whereby the mother will argue that she cannot ‘force’ them to adhere to a court order due to their age and their wishes need to be taken into account by the court.

Your OH has two options:

1. He does nothing and accepts that due to PA his children need no further conflict
2. Regardless of the backlog in the family courts, he puts in an emergency application ASAP (the longer he leaves this the worst this will be), and asks that the existing court order is adhered to (or better still amended so that the children are collected straight from school/ dropped to school). Minimising her stopping contact. What he needs to be prepared for are the courts not forcing a 15 year old to adhere. And the 12 year old being put through a section 7 to ascertain ‘their wishes.’

This next stage? No one wins if I’m honest.
As a parent I would hate anyone asking my children how often they want to see either parent, it’s just a horrid position to put a child in. But is it right to walk away? I don’t know, it’s a reply personal decision.

This sounds like it’s been planned for a while. Lots of RP wait until these sorts of ages to invoke ‘child’s wishes’. All they’ve done til this point is do the bare minimum req’d to adhere to CO’s.

I think parents like this (sadly) never settle. My exp has an EW just like his and I predict the same happening to him within a few years. It’s heartbreaking for everyone involved

If he goes the court route. He needs to be prepared that it won’t be easy and it could very easily lead to her ramping up PA on the children in the time being to ‘document’ their unwillingness to want to see their dad. The heartbreaking part is (as I said before) the children don’t escape this next part whichever route your OH picks.

I've been on the other side. A victim of domestic violence and children who were forced into contact despite physical abuse. Parental alienation claims are recognised as a tool used by abusive men to continue to control their victims.

At their age ( mine are similar) they won't be forced by a court. Which is how it should be. Forcing it will risk alienating them further. Keep the channels of communication open. Gentle encouragement. Dont try to control.

Parental alienation is also used as a tool by RP’s to break down relationships between their children and the NRP. Given the RP on the other side of this has already been threatened with removal of children for their behaviour regarding CO’s, I know which side I would bet on.

Plenty of HCP’s utilise PA as a method to remove the power of CO’s (which they deeply resent and entrenches conflict further).

@Willyoujustbequiet

My OH left the relationship due to her emotional abuse. There has been absolutely no abuse on his part.

If a man acted this way towards a women we would all be up in arms. Of course if a woman does it to a man it’s acceptable.

His daughter - 15 YO (heavily influenced & manipulated by the mother has decided she doesn’t want to come). Which he has accepted and he is trying to keep the lines of communication open.

The 12 YO has said he wants to come but the mother stops contact. My OH thinks a12 YO (and social services agreed when they recently assessed) that he is too young & immature to make that decision.

He’s going to file for an emergency order - how ever-long it takes.

I think all your OH can do is keep fighting the fight. Take back to court although he is close to a point where I expect they'll say the kids are old enough to make their own decisions.

I've experienced this myself, although nowhere near this bad, and I've heard from others that have gone through similar. Like Dad's that lost contact for years. All I would say is in these situations the children do eventually see the reality, unfortunately it may not be until they are adults.

I think the problem is that unless you've seen this first hand then you arent inclined to believe it. There was a recent thread on the relationships board and someone stated on that thread they were a professional (I think must have been cafcass or similar) and stated that in her experience of 100s of cases she hadn't once seen parental alienation. She hadn't come across one of 'those women'.

I can understand it in the sense there's probably not much will to address this as there are a lot of bad Dad's or perhaps it's the fact it's felt that the Dad's have made their own choices etc. But at the same time it's pretty horrible for many Dad's in this situation. I've also seen videos on social media about this type of thing and you get a sense for how much it upsets the children (grown ups in the video).

Once again it seems that a mother can do whatever they like.

This is far, far from the reality of what happens in family court, even if the mother has been badly abused by the father.

@Roblox01 interesting.

Professionals involved in my exp’s case put his EXW behaviour extreme down to ‘anxiety / natural concern’ at being parted from the children. Even though it was concluded that this anxiety/ concern itself was causing emotional harm to the children - no counselling of any sort was mandated to the EXW. Despite it being asked by my exp’s barrister how the court expected the ‘anxiety’ to settle without any professional intervention.
So if that is how extreme behaviour is explained away, I’m not surprised they say they haven’t seen ‘those’ women.

Whereas my exp was ordered to go onto a parenting course (despite there being nothing specific in his parenting that he was told to address). It was basically a tick box exercise so the experts could say they have allayed the concerns of the RP. (Even though there were zero grounds)

Bluntly nothing stopped the EXW trying to interfere / raise constant allegations to the professionals. Until one very smart judge (whom I think saw through all of this behaviour) changed contact to collection from the EXW after school to collection and pick up directly to/ from school.
She removed the EXW completely from transition. When independent professionals could see very happy, excited, well groomed children being collected / dropped (on time, with homework finished), and very settled in school following contact - it was clear that the problem was not my exp. Nor (given the allegations stopped) was it anything to do with the RP’s ‘anxiety’. All that was removed was the mecanism that the RP was using to consistently claim the children were returned with problem after problem (I.e her version of post contact events)

It was the best decision I saw any professional make over years of court proceedings. Zero allegations, the children are happy and the school report absolutely zero issues since the new system was implemented.

I highly recommend any NRP follow this route and remove RP from handovers/ transitions where ever possible if PA is suspected. It really removes the children from what can be huge points of conflict for them.

That's interesting. Should issues persist I will look at insisting on something similar.

Is she the one who said the kids were pay per view?

This woman sounds terrible...essentially cutting him out of their lives. Deleting his number and moving away. Does he know what school they go to?

Can he pick up the 12yo from school to see them?

I think he's right to file with the court. He has to keep fighting to show the kids they're worth it.

@Greenmarmalade

Once again it seems that a mother can do whatever they like.

This is far, far from the reality of what happens in family court, even if the mother has been badly abused by the father.

It's also not an accurate reflection of the replies you have received. You have had support, you have not people saying it is acceptable. That might be your perception of the world after all this and you might be sensitive to any suggestion of that, but it is not the response you had and it is not true.

If you are in a shit situation with only shit options available to you, then instead of fighting against it and causing yourself and others more stress and damage (pushing people away in the process), you have to accept the need to take the least shit option and find ways to make it better. Specifically, the court system is not about truth or fairness and pursuing matters through the courts in an effort to try and prove the truth or achieve fairness/justice is a path for misery.

The course of action you're proposing right now is a bit like thrashing about kicking and screaming fighting the waves when you fall into a cold stormy sea, when what you actually need to do to survive is stay still and calm and try to float and move with the water. Nobody wants to be in that position, but if you do find yourself there you need to calmly work with it, because staying in that angry state of denial trying to will it away means you drown.

So, let's take the PA claim as given instead of debating it - if the children believe that he is the problem and he is doing something wrong (or whatever stories they're being given), will it help matters if he inflames the situation further by trying to prove himself right through the courts?

Will putting them in the position of feeling stuck between their two parents - potentially having to disagree with mum to officials or reject dad to officials - help or will they shut down to try and protect themselves from the stress? Will they thank him for doing that for the sake of an address?

Or would it be better if he keeps channels of communication open even if they are more limited than ideal? And behaves in ways that mean the children can maintain at least some form of relationship with him without fear of their mum's reaction?

If you can't get a controlling person to stop kicking off/being controlling and have no choice about them remaining a presence in your life, then you need to find ways to remove their power. Or at least not do anything to feed that power.

By making a big deal of the address and going to court over it you're giving her more power to control. If you don't react and don't escalate it takes the punch out of that action. It's not about trying to 'win'.

The 15 yo doesn't contact him because they're worried about mum's response - is it ok for dad to keep contact from his side? Is it just responding that the child's worried about? If so, then he can do that as long as he keeps it at a level where the child doesn't find it intrusive but the child knows he cares and has an easy way to restart contact from their side if their feelings change.

Pushing for the 15 yo to do things that will cause mum to kick off at them isn't going to bring them on side. So don't think of it as giving in to mum, think of it as helping the child and making their life easier until things change. Because they will change.

The 12yo is comfortable responding, so that's great. He can nurture that, and again it is not about giving in to mum or mum 'winning' (there's no winning here let's be honest), it's about helping the child.

He doesn't have their address, but lots of people maintain relationships and contact without that.

Be careful that the history, and build up of emotions that history has understandably caused, does not cloud judgement about what will be the least damaging course of action and the most constructive if the goal is to maintain relationships and keep the door open for these children to reach out and be open to spending more time with him once they reach adulthood.

Be strategic. Even if it is infuriating. Even if it feels unjust. Life bloody is unjust. So make it work the best you can.

Maybe he can't have the kind of relationship with them in childhood that they all would have wished, but he can still lay the groundwork for them to have positive relationships with each other in adulthood. Don't lose sight of that - there are positive, constructive things that can be done here.

I highly recommend any NRP follow this route and remove RP from handovers/ transitions where ever possible if PA is suspected. It really removes the children from what can be huge points of conflict for them.

I won't copy the whole post, but I do agree with this general point and explanation.

I think it will be better in the long run that 'handovers' are not done at anybody's address anymore. The turn of phrase you used about collecting them from 'street corners' is very emotive, and I get why you're talking that way, but I think you would be better off reframing it more positively rather than choosing to continue viewing it as a negative.

Using a neutral location is calmer for the children and takes away a lot of the fuel that can lead to incidents so is better for the children there too. It's not an especially unusual set-up either.

@SandyY2K yes - she wrote to him (the dad) and said the kids were pay per view - he was paying £800 pm at the time and had done for 7 years and got sick of her demands for money or he wouldn’t be allowed to see the kids.

So he got the CMS to assess and they assessed he could pay significantly less. When she found out she wrote to him and said the kids were ‘pay per view’ and he wouldn’t see them unless he paid the higher amount. He got his solicitor involved who reported back that after 25 years of family law she had never encountered such a difficult person. When he tried to call the children they wouldn’t answer and his then 14 YO daughter sent a text to say they couldn’t speak to him as he ‘refused to pay mummy’.

He knows what school the kids go to. He’s in touch with the kids head of year (the mum had removed him as next of kin and put her abusive partner in place of him).

The woman is a champion manipulator.

When does it ever stop?

@wisteriaandwhine thank you for your post. Appreciate your words.

”Be strategic. Even if it is infuriating. Even if it feels unjust. Life bloody is unjust. So make it work the best you can.”

He can be strategic by taking it back to court, and trust that the judge follows through with the change of residency.

All good advice but just a practical thought. When it comes to parents evening/ school, what happens? Do you go and have a separate meeting about your children's progress? If you know where they go to school at least you can stay connected to how they are getting on. Am pretty sure a woman like the ex will tell anyone bad stuff about you including school. So go and show them you are a good father and interested in their school life. You might feel better having some sort of connection. You might already be doing this so it's just a thought.

@Louloubelle78 secondary schools particularly large ones are use to dealing with parents who can not be in the room together. Depending on the school they may be able to have separate meetings, or at least the father can legally ask for and obtain the kids school reports. The only thing to note is once a child is 16 they have a right to control who sees their personal information so can refuse to show either or both parents.

Northern -I feel for you and your DP.

However, he does not have the legal right to know where his DCS are living. He like SMs who find themselves in this position with their EXs have to trust that they are safe and looked after. My Ex did this for 8 months extremely stressful time for me as not knowing where they were was v v v difficult to control the feelings of panic. Especially when you do not trust the other parent.

No solutions - sorry

@RedMarauder absolutely! As an ex teacher and having an ex that feigned a remote bit of interest for one parents evening about 4 years ago I know schools are very accommodating! Just thought it it a good way to maintain a practical link so the whole sad situation feels less hopeless for the OP. Personally regardless of time I would go back to court. If you have all the evidence just represent yourself. When it is so cut and dry it is a way to save lots of money.....again speaking from experience unfortunately.