sucess at court self representing

[tigereyes1817]

DH had a court appearance and has now self represented 3 times and again doing so has come away
not being down trodden by Ex. Although I would have been very suprised if he had been as the variance in the court order that she was seeking kept changing and each excuse was a lie. Not suprisingly lies tnat could and were easily proved. As I always say to DH you can never prove a lie as with the truth you can. Ex whole life is not in reality and I knew that she would over step the mark once to often. As upto recently she has got away with everything and DH solicitor who has cost us a fortune would never stand up to her. Even when she threatened my family physically, it was just sweeped under the carpet, as if she never said anything. As she was allowed to say and do such things and no one would stop her, all I was comforted with by DH solicitor was that well if she did carry out her threat against your children then she would soon lose custody of DSC. That as it may be but that would not give me much joy when my children were harmed. That was only one time. I could go on and on. That is why I always advise everyone to DIY. If only we knew that we could do that ourselves. We would not have a massive legal bill being paid off, and less grief and lies from Ex.

Anyway. Nothing actually changes as per court order as it was Ex trying to reduce contact time using lies. But court decided that it would not be in the DSC best interests. Especially considering Ex statement relied heavily on nic picking about DH. Not a good idea. Where as ours was DSC DSC DSC, and siblings. O well that will be it for a few months before she starts again causing some trouble and bother somehow somewhere.

I do know that there is some thinking about court proceedings that why I have posted to say that DIY would be a better option. Personally speaking.

Congtratulations on the truth winning through. A moral victory at least.

Do you think the ex will now abide by the court order though ? ..... what infuriates me so hugely is that these contact orders are made but there seems to be no system in place to ensure they are actually adhered to. When they are broken time and again using spurious excuses, what punishment is actually handed out if the ex is taken back to court ?

I personally think that community service during the time the children were with their dad would be an effective deterrent for many people but so far as I know, this has never yet been applied. Punishment like fines and imprisonment are always argued against as they would apparently upset and/or affect the children .... though no such similar consideration (towards the children) is given to parents up in court for not paying council tax, speeding or avoiding a TV licence.

I do hope she winds her neck in now and allows the children to see their dad properly. It's such a cruel thing to do otherwise.

She will for a bit then hatch her next plan and make it hard for him and the kids. The main problem we have is the mental abuse she is causing the children. She says the horrific things and we pick up the pieces.But unlike every other time we ask for something to be put in the statement stating about the negative talk and abuse that6 she is doing we have always been told that you are not allowed to say anything against Ex, well in this statement we stated the truth about what she has been heard saying admitted saying and what kids teachers have said the children are saying. so the court knows now and the fact that she lied all the way through her statement. Believe me we were not petty in any way. We are not that type of people, we just wanted the court to know the effect that she is having on the children.

As for ex breaking the court order, no nothing happened her each time she has so she does again and again knowing that the court will do nothing about it. We travel a 200 mile round journey to get the children and several times DH has arrived to pick children up and had the door shut in his face. For no reason just because she can, and gets away with it. but the community serive while the children are in their father care sounds a good idea. Maybe then they would think twice about breaking the order.

That's great Tigereyes! You must be so pleased.
Thanks for the post. I think we're going for it DIY. It's a scary thing to start getting your head round but I think we're getting there. It's so reassuring to hear that you've done it alone.
I am worried about nothing happening if the court order's broken. I actually had this foolish thought there were measures in place to stop the ex from breaking it and once we'd been to court it would be sorted for ever. Nothing in this process is that easy is it!
But for now you must be very relieved. Well done to you and DP!

It's also very interesting to hear that you didn't hold back on how your DH's ex has been behaving. We've been advised, as you were, to try to avoid critising her too much. I actually thought it may help the court to get a better picture of the situation if we did go into these things. You obviously did the right thing there.

WELL DONE IN GOING LIP! (litigant in person)

I highly recommend self-representing yourself through the family court system, I have done this recently and gained a Shared Residence Order.

the benefits of going LIP are:

• those scum called family law solicitors don't trouser a fat fee for doing sweet FA
• you get a better result
• a sense of satisfaction of doing the best you can

The ex's lies will catch up with her, unfortunately the emotional abuse the kids are being subjected to is not a whole lot you can do about, just reassure the kids that they are loved and have a secure loving environment. Soon enough the kids will grow up a bit more and realise the rubbish that comes out of ex's mouth and see her for what she is - my daughter is nearly 5 and she gets fed rubbish about me but she is getting wise and our relationship is so strong.

I'd recommend joining Families Need Fathers, they are a national charity, probably with a local branch in your area. You can get practical advice and support, plus access to the help of a McKenzie friend (a lay law advocate who can accompany you to any future court hearings). I'm a local FNF branch volunteer and we regularly see dads (and mums!) who are in similar situation to yourself. You're not alone, but there are people to help.

As for breaking court orders .. yes, there are supposed to be sanctions - the court can theoretically send mum to jail/fine mum - this is not going to happen.

The court was to be given powers to give community service orders, this is on hold atm, but is worth asking for.

The other thing to do is if the court order is broken, return it to court straight away and ask for a Penal Notice to be attached (this gets a record of court orders being broken by the ex), keep on pushing the point to the court - the court has made an ORDER and the ex is defying the will of the court, she is breaking the LAW by breaching a court order.

Next time you are due to pick up the kids, have a meeting beforehand with the local family liaison unit of the police, point out that denial of contact is a form of domestic violence (FNF have confirmation of this from the metropolitan police), the court has made an order and you expect aid in this being followed through. Ask if a police officer can be on hand for the handover (as per the court order) in case of a breach of the peace , otherwise the ex is breaking the law.

Don't accept the police saying "take it back to court", you already have been through the courts! The courts have made an ORDER and you are asking the police to aid you to prevent the LAW being broken.

In cases of implacable hostility of an ex, there is now case law for transfer of residence from mum to dad. This is one thing to think about.

I would always recommend going for a shared residence order, I have a shared residence order for my daughter, however, we do live quite close by , there is case law for SROs over large distances so don't accept any guff about distance being a problem.

good luck, PM me if you need any help or advice

Hi Yerblurt. I know you have a load of help and advise on here a few times and I want to say thank you for that. As I have had great encouragement form you in the past.

Can I ask you to explain in more detail what a shared residence order is and would this actually change anything that we have now. As you know we do live 100 miles away from my DSC. But would this help them. We have been advised to go for residense order if she continued to abuse the children with her hatred and nasty untrue comments. But I do not believe that the courts would grant us the residency. Although I am no expertin this but just find it hard to believe as the courts are always looking at keeping the children with their natrual mother whereever possible. (Solicitors Speech). But what a shared residence order.

Puplelollypop
We did actually state this in DH statement we made it one paragragph and ensured we were not petty in anyway just stated what DSC had stated what effect this had had on them after being told. and the fact the school has also informed us that DSC had stated things. weighed heavily on the effect this has on the childtren. and left it at that. But DH Ex had prenty of opportunity to contridict any or all of our statement and she chose one thing which was about us believing that she wanted the reduced contact as we would be order to pay more child maintance. She never once defended herself about the abuse on the children when she had chance so, to me what does that say. Plus the fact that theonly thing she did state was the money in her defence. Whatever.

Hi Yerblurt. I know you have a load of help and advise on here a few times and I want to say thank you for that. As I have had great encouragement form you in the past.

Can I ask you to explain in more detail what a shared residence order is and would this actually change anything that we have now. As you know we do live 100 miles away from my DSC. But would this help them. We have been advised to go for residense order if she continued to abuse the children with her hatred and nasty untrue comments. But I do not believe that the courts would grant us the residency. Although I am no expertin this but just find it hard to believe as the courts are always looking at keeping the children with their natrual mother whereever possible. (Solicitors Speech). But what a shared residence order.

Puplelollypop
We did actually state this in DH statement we made it one paragragph and ensured we were not petty in anyway just stated what DSC had stated what effect this had had on them after being told. and the fact the school has also informed us that DSC had stated things. weighed heavily on the effect this has on the childtren. and left it at that. But DH Ex had prenty of opportunity to contridict any or all of our statement and she chose one thing which was about us believing that she wanted the reduced contact as we would be order to pay more child maintance. She never once defended herself about the abuse on the children when she had chance so, to me what does that say. Plus the fact that theonly thing she did state was the money in her defence. Whatever.

Hi tiger - I'm so sorry in replying so late, missed your post.

A Shared Residence Order (SRO) is a residence order which states that a child has two homes and resides at BOTH homes (obviously at different times).

This means that in law both homes and both parents are of equal value. This is in contrast to a sole residence order which states that one parent is the "resident" parent and the other parent the "non-resident parent" who has "contact" with the child (contact - well IMHO only prisoners or hospital patients have 'contact', I prefer the term 'parenting time').

A sole res order states that one parent is somehow 'better' than the other.

A shared residence order (as stated in case law):

• does not give the impression that one parent is somehow 'better' than the other
• sends out a message to authorities such as schools, health authorities, education authorities, that BOTH parents should be treated EQUALLY (as many non-res parents find a lot of difficulty in dealing with schools and LEAs).
• reflects the reality of a childs life - that both parents are involved in his/her life

A SRO does NOT have to mean a 50:50 split - this is a common misunderstanding (especially amongst judges - my own district judge at my first directions hearing said a SRO does not have to mean 50:50! the idiot!)

• a SRO recognises that a child has two homes of equal value. There can be a separate component of a SRO to define the actual amount of time spent at both homes. You can have a SRO with anything from 50:50 to 70:30. My daughter lives with me for approx. 35% of the year. Yet she has a sense of two parents, with two homes.

The most important case law to date is:
A v A (a distressing case involving repeated allegations of sexual abuse of the children by mum)
Re: D
Re: A
Re: C (2006) (martin cottrell's case) who got 50:50

and , in your case:
Re:F

In Re: F, a SRO was granted even though the parents lived a long distance apart, mum lived in scotland I think and dad lived in the south of england. Due to the long parental history of the children spending substantial time with both parents, the granting of a SRO reflected the reality of the childrens lives.

sometimes it's said that parents need to get on for a SRO to work (which is complete tosh of course - because if you WERE able to get on, then you wouldn't be in the court system of course lol), well there is case law from Lord Justice Thorpe in 2005 (Re: R) who said that "parental co-operation is not a pre-requisite for a SRO".

As to:
"as the courts are always looking at keeping the children with their natrual mother whereever possible. (Solicitors Speech)"

... well doesn't that just fill you with confidence. What a load of crap. The principle of the children act 1989 is that 'the child's welfare is paramount', and yes, the law is biased, the courts are a biased lottery and CAFCASS and all their ilk are biased and useless, but if that's how you're solicitor is thinking then they are already setting you up for failure.

I'd love to know on what basis the solicitor said that - well children have TWO parents, and I'm sure that nowadays dad's are much more involved and want to play a role in children's lives, so if this was the child's experience pre-separation, why is it suddenly the mother deemed to be the 'best' parent by deem of her biology and nothing else. sexist and gender-stereotyping nonsense.

hope I've been of some help... feel free to PM me or email me: [email protected] if you want to natter off-forum

There have been 2 recent cases of transfer of residence from an implacable hostile mother to father.

The case law is V v V, the two recent cases were in june and july this year (FNF have the details, can't remember off the top of my head).

I think the best thing to do first is to document any breach of the court order (i.e. the ex refuses to faciliate contact). Remember a court order is an ORDER , not a suggestion.

You will probably get little help from the police actually.

The best thing to do if the ex breaches the court order by not making the children available for contact, is to bring it back to court immediately the next available day.

You go along to the county court where the court order was made when the court opens (usually 9am), ask to see the next available judge (most cases don't start until 10.30), state the reasons you are there, that you wish to have an ex parte hearing for enforcement of the court order. State that the ex has broken a court order - which presumably the court has made in the child's best interests. The ex is showing contempt for the court and defying the will of the court. You are seeking an enforcement of the court order and asking for a penal notice to be attached.

This will at least send out a message to the ex that you mean business. You need to build up a history and show the court what the ex is doing. If the ex continually breaches the court order i.e. defies the will of the court and shows contempt for the court, then you will be in better position to start asking for transfer of residence.

It's unlikely that the ex will be hit with a community service order as this element of the children and adoption act was supposed to be implemented but the judiciary bottled it and it's supposed to be coming into force next october. don't hold your breath.

IS THERE ANYONE OUT THERE THAT CAN GIVE ME ADVICE ON MY SITUATION, I HAVEN'T SEEN MY CHILDREN SINCE MAY 16 2007 , I HAVE HAD ZERO CONTACT , I HAVE CHANGED 2 SOLICTORS WHO WAISTED 5 MONTHS AND NOW I'AM AT A PLACE WHERE THE EX HAD COMMISIONED A PHYCOLGY REPORT STATING THAT MY DAUGHTER WHO WAS 3 AT THE TIME AND HAS JUST TURNED 5 HAS SYMTOMS OF PTSD AND THAT MY SON WHO IS 8 DOES NOT WANT TO SEE ME BECOUSE IT WILL UPSET HIS SISTER .
WE WERE DUE FOR A ROUND THE TABLE MEETIN WITH EX AND HER SOLISTOR BUT JUST FOUBD OUT YESTERDAY SHE HAS DECIDED IT IS NOT IN THE BEST INTREST OF THE CHILDREN TO HAVE ANY CONTACT WITH THERE DAD .
THE COURT AHS ALREADY ORDERDE A BARR REPORT TO BE PRODUCED , I HAVE ALREADY BORROWED £2000 POUNDS AND NOW HE WANTS ANOTHER £2000 TO COMPLETE THE REPORT . I DONT HAVE THAT KIND OF MONEY AND ON TOP OF THAT I HAVE TO PAY MY SOLICTOR AND I'AM NOT ANY FURTHER ON .
I HAVE MY FIRST CHILD WELFARING HEARING ON THE 23 JUNE NOT SURE WHAT TO EXPECT .
I HAVE BEEN THINKING ABOUT REPRESENTING MYSELF BUT UNSURE OF THE COURT SYSTEM. I SIMPLY CANT AFFORD TO PAYING THESE HUGH SOLICTORS FEES .
COULD I REPRESENT MYSELF WITH THE HELP OF SOMEONE ELSE IN COURT WITH ME ??????
COULD SOMEONE PLEASE HELP !!!!!!!

desperate to see my babies again .

Just wanted to say - i self-represented aswell as solicitor cost me a fortune and didnt achieve anything - it was very beneficial and Im very glad I did it.

jeedy786 - sorry to hear about your very distressing situation.

First thing, look after yourself and try and keep a level head, I know how hard it is, believe me, I've been there.

I would seriously recommend you look up the local branch of your Families Need Fathers;
www.fnf.org.uk/help-support/local-branch-meetings

There is also a national telephone helpline available, staffed by volunteers, most of whom have been through all this.

Whereabout in the country are you?

There is nothing to prevent you self-representing yourself and having the assistance of a McKenzie friend, although it is quite short notice.

terrier141 - glad you went LIP, there is nothing that a reasonably intelligent person who has done some background research and reading cannot do that a solicitor would charge thousands for.

Do not underestimate the power you have over your own life and case by going LIP. Nobody knows your case better than yourself and can devote 100% focus to it.

With a good McKenzie friend too you should be able to get a decent result for your children and secure a meaningful relationship with them.

I'd be interested what your hearing was for (? contact order/PR/residence/specific issues) and at what level (magistrates/county court - and was it a concilliation hearing/further directions hearing etc).

Did you use a McKenzie?

How were you treated by the court and the other party?