How to handle new realisations about dh, exw & dc?

[QueenTatania]

Long time lurker but first time poster & would really appreciate constructive comments. This is very hard for me to write as I find it hard to articulate my thoughts on this matter so I'm sorry if I ramble a bit.
I've been married to dh for 3 years (together for 6). I have two dc (18 & 15) & he has 3 (21, 17 & 15).

From the start things were never great at his end. There were a lot of issues with his exw which affected the children & so we made a joint decision about 4 years ago that we would not force the children together. Dh lives with me but still keeps a house where his children live (about an hour away) & sees them eow for a full weekend & every Friday night. He goes to all school events & is a very involved parent.
If he's around dp will do family events/school stuff (concerts etc.) with me as I have a good relationship with my exh & his dw & there's never any tension.
I chose to remove myself from any of that stuff at dp's end as it only every caused issues with his ex which were then visited on the children.
I've been going to therapy the last 8 months or so (for an unrelated matter) & of course my family circumstances came up & herein lies some of my problem.

Through therapy it has become increasingly obvious to me (and therapist) that the levels of toxicity in dh's 'first family' (I know my kids and I are not his second family but don't know how else to refer to his ex & dc) are actually really affecting me. I sort of always felt this (but dismissed it as me being overly sensitive) but the space therapy is giving me is letting me see that dh has basically let himself be manipulated by both exw & children over the years & that my marriage has never gotten the attention it deserved because I let myself assume the role of second best; that my life choices etc. are always being dictated by the issues in dh's first family. Their dynamic of dealing with each other is so ingrained & so toxic that I just never thought to 'fight' it and as a result the therapist says I am completely depleted of energy. She says I'm like a passive smoker. And she's right. She asked me to keep a diary & yes, when dh is with his kids I'm full of beans but when he's around I literally want to sleep all day! The therapist maintains that I'm very empathetic and as a result I'm absorbing all the negative energy around his situation without even realising it & she actually is linking the thing I initially went to her with back to dh & his exw & kids.
I've been sitting with these realisations for weeks but honestly don't know where to go from here.

Because the situation is so nuanced I don't think dh will understand what I'm trying to say (he's very pragmatic) & I don't really know how to talk to him about it.
I feel like it's too late to change anything regarding his dynamic with exw & children but I don't want to live the rest of my life like this & am starting to regret getting married even though I love dh very much.
We don't actually talk about his exw & children a lot but that in itself causes issues as it's like there's always an elephant in the room which is also energetically exhausting.

I feel like I'm emerging from a fog & can't go back in but don't really know where to go from here. I feel like we tackled everything the wrong way round and in not blending, avoiding angering his exw, & giving his children space with their df we've now created a situation whereby I will always be second fiddle; that in trying to do the right thing we have actually let his exw and children assume more importance than our relationship.
I'm not sure if I've explained myself clearly but I'm very unhappy & would love to hear from anyone who's experienced similar & if so how did you handle it.

I don't have any experience but after reading your OP I wanted to say this. Both of your sets of children are nearly young adults now. It might be worth thinking about how you see the future together for you and your DH and making a new plan around that. The children will be at college, university and moving into house shares in 2 to 3 more years. Now is a good time to think about the future you want. Good Luck.

You could create a situation whereas things get reset. You have allowed this to happen and it seems everyone thinks you’re ok with it. You allowed it to be him his exw and his children you on the outside and to not blend the families. It has caused friction between everyone and allowed the toxicity into everyone’s lives.
The children are old enough to understand and his exw also needs to understand that he’s moved on and is now in a relationship (this should of happened 6 years ago). You need to set out what you need and want and tell him you’re not happy and no longer wish to carry on this way.
Tell the children the other house will be sold but make it out it’s for them. They could all have a bit from the proceeds including yours. Or have you agreed that whilst married he was able to keep and pay for a separate property for his children only? If that’s the case then they can share it if everyone is happy, if not, you need to say. You are married and should work together. His exw should have no say if dictate your life and it seems she would have probably enjoyed watching you being put last. Do it for your children as this isn’t healthy and is not teaching them about healthy relationships. They have only seen toxicity and it now upto you and your dh to chow them different and how a loving marriage works

@Ukholidaysaregreat, I think you have touched on one of my big concerns in that I can see a future for me with adult children being adults but don't think it will happen at dh's end as there is too much codependency & dh will always be at their beck & call.
@Newtlizzy, I take fully responsibility for me allowing things to develop this way. However my children have been well protected. The issues at dh's end & the subsequent not pushing the kids together has worked out well for my dc & in fact they were one of the reasons I stepped back from all things at dh's end as I did not want my dc exposed to it. They see a stable (until now) albeit unconventional relationship at my end & a very normal family set up at their dfs. I have handled all this quite well up until about a year ago. It's over the last few months I have gradually come to realise that yes, I have accepted way less that what I should have. Historically I set the bar very low for myself & I know this has to stop. However I do feel that it's up to dh to change things at his end but that it's too late. Their family unit has been acting with this level of disfunction for over 20 years without him ever fully trying to effect a proper shift in the dynamics.
Thank you for your reply & I know I need to work on stating what it is I want even if it causes a relationship breakdown.

I would be very clear with yourself about what you want to happen.

You could sell both homes and then it's a fresh start for you all. Would that enable you to afford somewhere with space for everyone even in shared rooms. What is happening with the 21 year old at present?
They are all at difficult ages, just on the cusp of independence, but probably not quite there yet.

Asking him to sell and his children visiting yours could make his children feel pushed out and yours become territorial about their space.

Do you actually want to blend at this stage? You have to be really clear, because if it comes across that you just want him to see his children less it's not going to go down well. Can you identify exactly what you want to change and how you see it working?

I have gradually come to realise that yes, I have accepted way less that what I should have
Have you? Ultimately you made the choice to not join the family, ultimately because his and tour kids wouldn't have got along.

So he has no choice but to go to see them eow. It is right that he should be involved with their activities and the rest.

When you don't join as a family, it's inevitable that you will be spending less quality time together and some aspect of your life will be distinct.

Without knowing exactly how this impact on your life, it's difficult to how much he is neglecting you and how much you might expect too much under the circumstances where compromises are inevitable.

Thanks @lunar1. I don't expect him to sell anything & nor do I expect him to see his children less. What I'm finding it hard to articulate is the fact that I don't think his relationship with his children is particularly healthy, the triangulation between him, his dc & his exw is not a good one. His children are not developing into independent, kind people. They tell dh their relationship with their dm is bad & they overly depend on dh for every, single thing. The 21 year old has given up his training & is living with his dm but living off dh all the while bitching about how awful his mum is. All this is only the tip of the iceberg. Dh is taking the 17 & 15 year olds shopping for school uniforms this weekend as they won't do it by themselves & say their dm won't take them. Personally I think this is ridiculous. My 18 year old has gotten herself off campus college accommodation without any help from me or her df.
I accepted all this for years because I felt sorry for them & I felt sorry for dh & I didn't want to be judgemental of how he & his exw parent, but now I see that what they all (inc. exw) needed was probably a bit of tough love.
Now that all the dc are getting older I can see huge differences between my dcs relationship with their df & dhs relationship with his dc. My dc see their dad, his dw, her ds & their half siblings roughly the same amount & there is no drama. Dh accepts & also contributes to all the drama at his end, is constantly tired & stressed but can't actually see why iycwim. If I try to bring up how drained he is & subsequently how drained I am by him being like this, but he just says it's work that makes him tired & everyone who works hard is like this.
Replying to you & others is making me solidify certain things in my head & maybe it's time dh & I got some couples counselling. I don't know.
If I'm guilty of anything it's of not seeing much of this sooner & now dh is probably feeling blindsided by my discontent. However I do feel that if dh can't see all the above & doesn't want to change things we probably don't have much of a future.
Maybe it's just something that can't be fixed at this stage.

@dontdisturbmenow, I didn't say he neglects me. I don't need to spend more time with him but I would like the time we have to not be dictated by his preoccupation with his dc. As I said even if we don't talk about dh is still stressed & tired by the dynamics. We made the decision not to blend together, & the children not possibly getting along was only one factor. The bigger issue was that his exw was very unsupportive & his dc appeared very distressed at her distress & anger so we decided to leave well enough alone. His dc were 15, 11 & 9 when we met & it seemed like the right thing to do at the time. I admit that in retrospect & now that they are all older, it possibly wasn't.

I think your example is odd, taking children uniform shopping is just parenting, it's hardly going above and beyond. I don't think it matters what age his children are for jobs like that. Especially if they have one parent not engaged in actually parenting.

I think you need to be careful not to go down the track of thinking the way you do things with your children is right and his is wrong. It's just different, and they have different circumstances.

Can you elaborate a bit more on what it is exactly that is making you stressed and having this knock-on effect on the issue which you sought counselling for? It’s not really clear to me I’m afraid. You feel your DH is over-involved with his ex-wife and puts all his mental energy into his children at the expense of your relationship - is it that? What is it you would like that you’re not getting - him being more proactive in organising ‘date nights’ and that kind of thing?

Now that all the dc are getting older I can see huge differences between my dcs relationship with their df & dhs relationship with his dc
Not all teenagers and young adults are well balanced and independent and I say that as a mum of three who are very independent and need me little.

I don't think taking a 17 and 15yo for school uniforms to be ridiculous, it's quite a common thing to do with parents.

Be careful not to project your relationship with your kids into his. His kids might indeed have more emotional needs but that doesn't mean it is wrong. I'd they were between 25 and 30yo, that would be a bit different.

I understand that it is sometimes difficult to bear the stress of our ohs, but it's part of being in a relationship. We are all stressed at some times caused by different things. It could be work, elderly parents, in hiscase, it's his kids.

You don't have to carry that stress though, but be sympathetic rather than blaming his kids and his ex.

@lunar1 the reason I've ignored so much in the past is because I try to be open minded about different parenting. As I said I'm struggling with articulating this stuff as it's nuanced.
The issue isn't that dh is taking them uniform shopping. The issue is that their dm told them to go by themselves, pick up their stuff & bring it home to try on (due to Covid no try ons in store). This to me is a perfectly reasonable thing to ask a 17 & 15 year old to do. The 17 year old then got on the phone to dh complaining that dm wouldn't pick the stuff up for them & was making them do it so dh then says not to worry he'll do it this weekend with them. This then sparked a row with dm who was (rightly imo) annoyed with him for overruling her.
Result: dh in bad mood. I tried to speak to him about it but I just got shut down.

@SuzieCarmichael, aside from what I've tried to explain (badly I think) yes, I do all the work in our relationship. Dh used to be very proactive but the older the dc have gotten the more mental energy he gives both them & their relationship with their dm. They complain about their dm endlessly, but I can't see that she is doing anything so bad as a parent that she warrants this. She doesn't seem to jump to their tune all the time but as a dm myself I understand this.

I get that teens are hard work as I have dc too, but they don't rule my life.
I organise holidays, dates, everything. The weekends we are together he is so tired that he would sleep & watch tv all weekend. If I say I'm off on a hike he feels bad if he doesn't join me but if he comes he's exhausted and doesn't enjoy it which in turn affects my mood. His tiredness isn't physical, it's mental. Everytime he's with his dc or they're on the phone there's a drama & as he sees his dc every week (& I've no issue with that) it feels ongoing.

If I had sent my teenagers shopping for school uniform they would have bought completely impractical stuff so above the knee skirts,an oversized handbag for books and flimsy fashion shoes.
My son would have bought expensive fashion trainers( that were banned in school) a few designer polo shirts with logos ( banned in school) and a single pair of fashion trousers.both would buy blazers but I doubt they would think of a waterproof coat.

@Muddledupme, mine wouldn't do that but that's not the point.
The point of that example is go back to my initial post that the dynamic between them all is skewed.

Exw told dc to get uniforms, bring them home, try them on & it would be taken from there. Dc complained to dh who overruled exw (annoying her in the process). Exw (as the rp) was handling it her way but dc got dh riled up who took matters into his own hands & a resulting drama ensued.
This is only one example of how even the most basic thing escalates because they are all, exw, dh & dc, constantly playing one point of the triangle off against the other two.

I think I'll leave it here as if I am any more specific I'm worried I may be outing & I believe my sil uses here which is why I've never posted before.

Everytime he's with his dc or they're on the phone there's a drama & as he sees his dc every week (& I've no issue with that) it feels ongoing

Yes, I recognise this. (I could tell you some tales!) And the split-house system.

But DP and I have a fair relationship, whereby he helps me out massively with my young adult DC's 'stuff', and I help with his (I'm good at admin, for example). It all feels reciprocated, including the mental load.

It sounds like it's that sense of fairness that's missing?

I think it’s not the kids who are the problem here, it’s your oh.

The kids dm sounds on the same kind of track as other decent parents, just that the kids are enabled by their Disney dad

If you are suffering physical fallout from your relationship in this short a space of time, do not continue on as you are! Your body is screaming at you for help getting out of this, and you’re not listening

That scenario never bodes well.

You can’t cure this mess through therapy, only real changes will stop the fallout, you may love your oh, but he’s bad for you.

I think I get you. It's not the fact he went shopping it's the circumstances around it. Nothing is straight forward. It's all an ordeal, tons of back and forth, arguing, pointless drama, you're probably getting an earful. If everytime they give out about their mum he gets stuck in on their side I can see how that would get totally draining and most of their interactions are stressful. It's like the difference between texting your dad all day with memes or jokes or chats vs texting all day complaining. Both examples are 'they text all day'. The issue isn't uniform shopping, it's how it came about.

Ok I think I understand a bit more now. You feel taken for granted by him? I must say that he does sound a bit much really, getting so exhausted by all this conflict and interaction that all he wants to do is flop in front of the TV.

It makes a bit more sense now you elaborated, and it seems to be him causing the issues for everyone. If their dad always does this of course his dc are going to ask.

The way I read it at first was that the mum was useless and he was picking up the slack. But it actually sounds like he is constantly undermining her, and the drama is coming from there. I'm not surprised you are feeling the way you do.

I think it's one of those knowing what to change/knowing what to accept situations.
For whatever reasons, you now have the situation you're in. You could look to change it, change how you process it or a bit of both. The sucking of energy and feeling like second best aren't sustainable emotions for your wellbeing. Therapy could help you identify parts of the situation to change and parts of yourself to change. It sounds like you believe your therapist has good insight into the dynamic and how it affects you, do you think you could work together to come up with more concrete actions you can take to alleviate some of the negative effects it is having on you? Or do you think your therapist is more of an analyse and pick apart kind.
You seem to think your DH 'first family' are fairly immovable in their ways. Do you feel like there are legitimate ways you can change how this affects you that leads to a sustainable and fulfilling life for you? You shouldn't be suffering squeezing yourself into the space around them and feeling like your wellbeing isn't important

OP, I totally understand why you are feeling that way.. However I would strongly recommend to try and get a bit more practical. What are you trying to achieve?
Realistically his parenting style won't change,it has been 20 years.
From what you are describing it is likely his adult children will continue to be financially dependent on your husband. Is it tolerable for you? It is also likely their demand on his time will decrease significantly within the next 3 years which is a good thing for you I guess.
Is it enough?

I get what you’re saying, completely, and yes parenting styles differ but whatever people’s parenting styles are, whether split up or still coupled, no parent should be engaging with their dc badmouthing the other parent at all. If they’re kicking off about their mum being a Huge Bitch for making then shop for uniform, there’s a way to say for eg ‘oh dear, well your mum is very busy, would it help if i picked you up and gave you a lift back with the shopping?’ or whatever, where he’s helping them with the thing they’re moaning about while ignoring the slating of their mum.

You say he’s pragmatic - but is he really? Because a pragmatic person should be able to focus on the practical solutions when conflicts arise instead of getting drawn into pointless drama. And his tiredness - i would be pushing him to go and see a doctor if he is permanently so exhausted that he can’t do normal family life things. Lots of people work hard (i am sure you do) and manage to go for a walk or socialise.

The real issue is that there’s clearly an issue bothering him, and he either won’t or can’t discuss it with you, while using his energy reserves engaging with drama he shouldn’t be getting drawn into, ie teenagers/young adults rowing with their mum. Couples counselling would probably help, will he agree to go to it though?