Contact changing.... and just why.

[Scarycoaster]

I posted the other day and had some really helpful responses. Sadly on reflection I felt best to ask for the thread to be deleted as I had released far too much information that could have resulted in a host of problems for us.

Thank you all so much though.

Anyway...

We found out from SC why they didn't want to come anymore. Turns out they had lied about being sent to bed early (thankfully exW called them out on this as she had been texting eldest and asking what they are up to and she was still replying late into the night often)

Woken early. Dh disputed that, as they are always about when I sneak out to go to the bathroom way before even my youngest is awake. I had mentioned this to him in the past in passing.

And that our lounge isn't big or nice enough... baring in mind it is a very nice size with even five of us all in there. Yes the decoration isn't up to scratch as we are in the process of decorating. But it is clean, tidy, comfy and neat. I make sure of this as mess/dirt makes me anxious.

I am not only offended, but concerned about the lies. Purely because in the past they have made some very awful allegations and I worry this is the lead up again.

Allegations being:

we hit them (never even so much as shout beyond raising a voice over loud music for example)

Youngest said bil told him to punch me in the stomach while pregnant years ago. Again - multiple people in the room (including elder sc) at the time never heard this and it is so far removed from his character.

We starve them. When reality is they always have access to the snacks apart from close to meal times and have two, sometimes three cooked meals a day.

When eldest was confronted on why they blanks their dad outside of contact, it was a response along the lines of being afraid to make him angry incase they said the wrong thing. Again, no reason to think that as I've seen the texts he sends and they are all open ended regarding how bla bla is going or how they are. Not to mention, if anything he is far too soft on them all the time. They've never seen him annoyed! Least of all to something so simple as a question.

They then refused to come this weekend again. DH then offered to take them out for a bit to cover things, yet nothing seemed to come from it.

He is of the belief now that this is normal for their ages (8,11) . I'm of the belief it isn't, that the lying especially after their history shouldn't have been rewarded with a meal out. And that comments towards our home should have been called out on being rude and insensitive.

I love sc and do want to see them grow into nice adults. I feel the dynamic of power plays, lying and manipulation will counter any chance of that happening.

I appreciate they aren't my children, but my children see this behaviour. And see how it is dismissed or even rewarded.

I do appreciate how hard it must be for him. Of course I do. But i truly believe giving in to power plays the wrong way to go. As it'll only ramp up more and more as they hit teenage years.

Am i being wicked? I don't want to be. I want us all to function as a loving family.

But I must admit I am incredibly hurt that despite how much we do, how much we do our best to show we care. They lie about us and now insult our home. A home we work very hard to keep nice for all of us!

This isn't normal behaviour at this age is it? I know I was never allowed to be disrespectful or rude. I was called up on it and on talking to my parents they can't remember me acting that way at their ages either. I knew better.

And looking back on it I can list a lot of times they have insulted things people own that passed more under the radar as I just didn't expect to think much of it beyond it being accidental. (Pointing out things weren't a real brand but an alternative to my nephew/nieces things. Insulting the size of someone's pool etc)

I feel genuinely upset. And hurt. And quite angry with DH for letting those comments slide. I worry if they'll now make them in front of our DC. Then they'll be sad, despite living in a very nice area in a very nice home.

Although I appreciate he took them out through desperation to see them, I feel like sc have been rewarded for bad behaviour by getting a meal out. While me and dc had to make do with what was in the freezer as the original plan was take out for us all.

Now DH feels I am being cold towards the situation and not understanding. I've tried explaining that I see their behaviour through a not so rose tinted view. That I do love them but I am finding it very hard to live with this dynamic when nothing seems to be being done beyond pandering through fear.

I'm now quite uncomfortable with the prospect of having them here again. Of course I will. But I worry one day they'll make an allegation we can't easily dispute. The impact that could have on my children. The impact the lying and insulting comments could have on them.

It feels like everyone is pandering in the moment rather than actively working on them for their sakes, and both homes and families sake.

My issue lies with DH, I don't blame the children for pushing boundaries. They ARE children. But I feel like it is all being minimised and it's like watching a slow car crash.

I've asked if when we see them next if I can also have a word, to express my hurt and upset. Naturally with DH present and being very careful with my wording. But I feel they are old enough to know their actions have consequences. Emotional and otherwise.

I don't mean as in laying down the law. Just that I am hurt they would make up lies about us and insult our home.

Apparently this would be unfair on them and hurt them? I don't want to HURT them, I just want them to bloody understand acting this way isn't acceptable.

I don't want to live in fear when they are here. Nor do I want younger DC to either.

Nor do I want a complete different dynamic of "us vs them" on either side. As that isn't healthy for any of the kids.

And as I said - I am very afraid one day this will really escalate and we will have nothing to prove ourselves with that time.

I've already said I'll never be left alone with them until this is resolved. A hard decision to make as there was a time i used to really enjoy spending one on one with them. But i just can't take that risk, when the result could be catastrophic.

I also do appreciate I may be dramatising a little through stress. But I just feel so lost and confused and hurt. And god how I have blabbered on here!

If exW called her ds out on this it sounds like their parents have discussed all this? What was the gist of their discussion, is mum speaking to the dc about it all or trying to get to the bottom of things?

I’m wondering if they just don’t feel comfortable and are coming up with something concrete in the form of ‘living room not nice’ ‘sent to bed early’ if they can’t quite articulate what’s causing the feeling. So while those reasons can’t necessarily be corroborated they perhaps aren’t very damaging lies in the form of the earlier allegations. Therefore rewards and punishments don’t seem quite appropriate maybe, even if it’s not ‘normal’ behaviour.

Maybe I’m being too soft but am trying to think of it from all angles. I can imagine it feels personal but possibly isn’t. That said it does sound stressful.

Agree with latent

Different situation, but when her mother still had shared custody, dsd made up reasons she either needed or wanted to stay here, or more occasionally reasons she had to go to her mothers. Nearly always things we knew weren't true. It wasn't simply because she was unable to articulate the real reasons, more she didn't know she was allowed to articulate them.

I think the best course of action is for them to spend some time alone with their dad, they're far more likely to discuss the real reason with just him.

Sorry if I wasn't clear - I wasn't there for the discussion. I overheard the call.

Although I hadn't thought of that angle if I'm honest. That they may be clambering for reasons rather than being intentionally hurtful.

It's hard to say too much without going into too much detail, but maybe I have started to just default assume the worst due to the mix of history there.

They aren't bad kids at all, in my previous post I said how when here you would think it is all a working blended situation.

It just seems to be negstives arise more during periods they aren't. Which can make them hard to read or really know what is what.

ExW did call them out on it this time a bit more yes, but usually tells DH it is up to him and not her problem. This time she had plans it affected. And DH admitted this weekend with other issues he is scared to say much because he knows they will just refuse to see or speak to him otherwise.

There is much more of a back story as to why I'm starting to feel uneasy, but that said I do see I may be reading more into this one alone rather than seeing it as an individual event.

It's hard to see the wood from the trees currently. I want nothing more than for this all to work out and for all children to be happy. I honestly do. I just don't like the underlining level of fear that seems to have creeped in.

Kids make up stories. They have overactive imaginations and don’t yet understand the significance of what they are saying.

The ex hasn’t been taken in by their silly stories presumably because she knows your dh better than that.
I think you all need to carry on as normal, breezily call them out each time they come up with something new,
Schools and Social services can tell the difference between well fed, well treated children and those who have been starved and beaten. Don’t be afraid, and don’t ignore it, just keep cheerfully reasserting the truth.

My ds once told his school I was cruel to him. On closer questioning this amounted to him not being allowed to play Fortnite at 8yo.

Oh I do agree. It's more the idea of not being told that worries me. I worry with a dad being too scared to say anything that implies anything negative they won't learn it isn't okay to say these things.

Exw is a brilliant mum, but not always willing to cooperate with DH on things and is quick to usually having a go at him if the children say something rather than discuss it.

That I guess is the aspect I worry about more than anything. Not the children directly, but how if DH doesn't call them out on it, exW won't always either. And with the mix of picking and choosing contact they are being given too much control. Control of when to do things this end re: contact (exW doesn't allow it her end) . And the control of knowing if they say something to their mum that is either exaggerated or flat out untrue, their dad will get a telling off instead.

The lies from kids I can handle (even though they are hurtful), it's the dynamic it is creating that worries me.

Hi op - I don't think you should be too worried about ss potentially being involved in the future - pp have said these children are obviously very well looked after & ss would see that. Same with schools.
However, I fully understand your uneasiness & I would feel exactly the same myself.
Tbh they sound like very spoilt kids who have gotten very used to calling the shots & getting the adults to dance to their tune. Also while their dm might be great she sounds inconsistent & weak (regarding her kids) which does not bode well for successful co parenting & your dh seems to be doing the 'weak' thing too.

If both your dh & his exw know their kids are lying & manipulating then the conversation they need to be having as parents (to kids of this age) is that contact gets decided by the adults NOT the kids, & lies will NOT be tolerated. They really do need to present a united front in this in order to stop what is very damaging behaviour. There's no point in the exw only calling them out on it when she has plans & then letting them dictate contact when she doesn't. And there's no point in your dh minimising their behaviour out of fear.
Both parents are doing these kids a massive disservice at present & if they can sometimes agree on parenting why can't they do it all the time?
My exdp's were let rule the roost & were very much on course to being unpleasant, entitled, self cantered adults.
Kids need consistency & while it is natural for them to push boundaries, the most reassuring thing for them is to know the adults are in charge. To that end (fair) discipline, rules & set contact is very important to the mental well being of kids this age - even if they rail against it.
Your dh & his exw have a lot of work to do hear & you're right to be worried as you seem to be the only adult see the long term, bigger picture.

Magda - again I agree on all your points.

ExW when suits can be very helpful in working with DH with the dynamics. But in general is not. She is happy to assume the worst more often than not.

We know this kind of behaviour isn't tolerated at home as we've carried over punishments from her house to ours before now. With the youngest more so than the oldest anyway. Oldest never seems to do wrong in their eyes and youngest has fallen into the "problem child" role there.

It just seems that any similar behaviour they exhibit which she doesn't agree with is excused when aimed at DH more often than not.

It's a shame because when they have worked together, naturally both sides have seen a massive improvement. It just isn't consistent. DH will always back exW up on rules and punishments, the same isn't always given in return. The general attitude is "on your time it's your problem". Which I agree with to an extent, doesn't exactly help him when he does enforce something, it isn't backed up or worse, she attacks him for in front of the kids. Then the kids refuse to even engage with him.

I do still fear the ss or police though. Due to how rarely they are here (their choice) it doesn't really ease my mind that they would see they are well fed and cared for as that could be argued comes from their mums care.

I'm concerned. Some of the biggest lies were only just last year, so it automatically raises red flags to me the moment they start again on a lesser scale.

As I said, I do get kids are guilty of embellishing and saying things that aren't true. I've seen it with my own niece and nephew. But the difference was it was addressed! The dangers it put them in (fear of people not believing them if something was true in future) and the people they were accusing things of in.

They are younger by a few years and now know that lying gets them nowhere. Because the fact parents and family were consistent in calling them out on it and making them aware of the consequences of such.

I just feel so uneasy over the whole situation. I never expected things to be smooth sailing. I know as an older child myself I I wasn't the easiest. But again I was brought up with consistency and consequence.

I worry for their future and the families future if they continue to be allowed to have this attitude, over minor or bigger things. Especially as DH admitted he wouldn't have handled it that way if it had been our DC doing those things.

So he knows there is a problem there. And understandably is scared. But he can't treat them differently in that respect just because they've been given a power card.

To give an example of the difference in attitude - our youngest was unwell over the weekend. Which resulted in a lot of wanting to sleep in our bed because they needed that added comfort. He accused them (2) of wanting to manipulate us to get their way as they cried when put in their bed but settled more in ours.

It's hard for me not to get my back up when he is so hard on a tiny toddler for something as simple as needing to sleep next to their mum when ill. Yet will completely ignore massive issues elsewhere through fear.

I've sat up with youngest sc before now when unwell as they've asked for me and naturally, kids need comfort when ill.

No child should be treated differently. Least of all because they lack a power play to use against him.

That isn't a dynamic I want to see exist in my home. Even if it technically benefited my two. Regardless of who their mum is, they are all 100% equal. Thar shouldn't just involve good for one side and good and bad for the other.

Ah, I see now OP it’s more about the dynamic and inconsistency from their parents, here the children (as in so many separated households) being given too much power. At 8 and 11 both parents need to breezily bat away this stuff and enforce the contact regime for the security and well-being of the dc. Not just when it suits mum’s social life.

I can see you are the only consistent adult in this situation and you can, rightly, see trouble ahead.

Your DH is being disempowered and parenting from a place of fear. I’m not sure what you do, but you have my sympathy.

Exactly that.

I want what is best for ALL the children ideally, but I can't control what their parents do. I can however somehow protect mine. It's how that I am starting to struggle on.

Leaving isn't an option as dh is a loving husband and father, his lack of boundaries with his eldest come through fear. I do respect that. But that doesn't make it alright either, not when the impact of that directly affects all members of his family.

Nor do I blame sc. They are children. They are acting out because for them, it works and they aren't being shown otherwise. Most children in that position would do the same.

And despite it all, I do love them. Very much. Which is probably why it hurts to see how they are becoming/hurts me with how they are acting towards us all, DH especially.

Thst said I can't stand by and watch a dynamic form which is damaging to my DC. Or at least would be a few years down the line when they understand more. Same way as if the dynamic was shifting to favour my two, I don't want that.

Regardless of who came first/who's parents are still together, or even who's children they are. They are all loved and should all be treated equally and fairly to help them grow into decent adults and above all else - hopefully be able to maintain a loving relationship with all their siblings without resentment and jealousy getting in the way

Agree with you, OP. It’s hard to watch that stuff and while it’s true they are not your kids it impacts your family.

The way forward I can see (potentially) is to sort of detach a little emotionally, from the dc. It’s sad. It’s second best, not what you want. But, that way these ‘slights’ won’t feel so personal.

And when your dc are older (am not sure how many dc you have) you can explain that DH and his ex have chosen to give his dc choices and that comes with consequences A, B and C & that their parenting is not something you can influence.

That is my concern. What frustrates is when he sees parenting "fails" as such, he is quick to point them out (to me, not to the parents) . So he KNOWS. And whenever I ask him to see their behaviour from that angle, or even if it was youngest DC he sees how wrong it is.

It's like watching a slow car crash and my dc and DH are right in the middle.

I have started to detach on some level, which I really dislike myself for. I never wanted to be that step mum.

I come from a family with a dad and sibling who were both adopted. We are very much a "family makes family. Not blood"

Myself and my family have never seen sc in any other light than family. Which regardless will stay the same.

I just feel like I'm failing as a step mum because I am detaching. Yet there really is no other option.

It's already affected my mental health over the years. Which in turn affects just how good a parent i can be to my own. I do my best to hide it, but some days especially close to contact time or if something has kicked off. I'm not my usual happy self. I get withdrawn and stressed and worried.

I worry over what that weekend will bring, if anything. The results of that.

Its mentally draining.

All I van really do is keep distance and keep my DC out and about instead. Which is hard as DH works such long hours than weekends we usually have the sc are really the only time any of the children ger to see him.

@Scarycoaster you really do have my sympathy & you sound soooo clued in & loving that I'm feeling so frustrated for you.
My exdp was exactly the same. He KNEW the dynamic he, his exw & the kids had created was all wrong but he couldn't seem to fix it. He really felt like his exw had all the power & fear was a huge driving force. He even had his counsellor telling him he was being manipulated all over the place by the kids & his exw but he was so far in it he just couldn't get out.
This sounds a bit mad but I often felt that he needed to go away for about 4 weeks (they say it takes 28 days to break a habit) somewhere remote without his phone to 'reset' himself so that he could break the cycle they were all in & tackle it afresh once he came back. Obv that's not realistic but I felt that's what would be done - in an ideal world.
I have no real advice for you because I left the situation but I think @LatentPhase is right - all you can really do is detach somewhat & rear your kids how you see fit. The reality of your situation may be that your dc don't develop a bond with the sdc but I'm not sure there's much you can do about it. If your dh & his exw can't tackle this issue as a team I think he will end up having to manage two separate families which is sad.

I'm so sorry that you weren't able to work things out with your ex. Would you say his parenting was mainly the cause of that? Sorry, I don't mean to pry I'm just wondering if there is always a given that if you clash regardless of reasons it will result in an end.

I don't want to see me and DH seperated over this. I know it hurts him that I point out these things, but I do from a good place.

I used to think the same regarding a four week shut down break!

I feel for nrp in these situations, I really do.

I am actually surprised that I have gotten the responses that I have. I was expecting a borage of evil step mum responses. As that is how I feel.

Its helped me process things a lot better knowing that I'm not being completely unreasonable with my view or need to detach a bit.

I still feel terribly guilty and wish it hadn't reached this point. This isn't the family i wanted for my sc or dc. Yet there clearly is no other way forward without leaving completely. I just hope that sc don't notice it. I'll still be the same as i am towards them, I'd never be different with them. But i worry if they notice I've distanced myself it'll take a further hit on them. That said, I need to prioritise my own dc and to do so I need to prioritise my own mental health.

Blended families are so much more complicated than even I, after all these years thought. Every time we seem to get over one hurdle a new one appears.

I feel for the sc as they are likely going through their own emotional hurdles, especially at such a young and confusing time.

I'd say we split because I couldn't detach enough & he couldn't contain the crap enough. It had gotten to the point where he'd be in bad form after his weekends with the kids. On weekends without them there would be phone calls & issues. And any holiday we took without them (& without my kids) caused uproar & any holiday with them was joyless. Basically all out time together was impacted.
I had a lot of sympathy for his kids initially, but as they got older they had no interest in helping themselves, being independent or treating their parents with respect. Being around them was exhausting & really began to affect my kids.
I know even now they are the products of their environment but they also have to interest in taking any personal responsibility for their actions.
I have found coparenting with my exh very tough at times as he too can be very inconsistent. However, 90% of the time we make it work & strive to be on the same page & so I found the dynamic between exdp & his ex very hard to watch.
If I was a different person I might have found detaching easier - but I didn't so I ended it. I don't think these issues have to break a relationship, but they will if you can't get a little 'cold' about things & not let them affect you.

That is a concern. It impacts all aspects. Causes unneeded stress when otherwise its good.

We are very different in our approaches, he will shut down to emotionally protect himself whereas I feel the need to discuss and resolve. I find it very hard as he will look at the short term and I'll view the long term.

Detaching is incredibly difficult I find. I've tried in the past and then we have a few good weekends that are drama free and I feel myself sucked back in. I think my biggest obstacle to overcome is to get past the view that it CAN be fixed. Not that the children can't be, just that I lack that choice.

As it stands for their own personal reasons their parents choose not to. So I have to therefore accept that and shut down those feelings myself.

Incredibly difficult especially when you have your own DC to put into your view.

But I think you are all right in the fact I need to accept it can't be changed and that may mean that all children don't have the relationship that would be ideal.

I guess nothing in life is ever ideal or perfect. Especially when you're dealing with a blended family or separated family.

I really honestly respect how you seem to manage things magda. I've seen you post a lot on this forum and you always seem so level headed and clear in your views. A lot of which if the worst ever was to happen, I would hope to have with DH in regards to our shared DC.

Parenting, whether together or not makes such a huge impact on children. It seems to be a hard line for people to find a balance of not making them entitled while at the same time making sure they are still secure in both homes.

I know my mum said when she fell pregnant with me one of her biggest concerns was how my sister (adopted) would feel. And yet it has never been an issue, because it was never treated as one. My sister is my sister regardless of blood. We were always treated equally and brought up the same way. That is what I wanted for the children, to see us as family regardless of who came from where. Hence my stress to want them all to be treated the same.

It's sad to think my family is essentially fractured because two adults (with me on the sidelines as well) couldn't get past difficulties within their own dynamic.

Parenting children even when you're together and overall happy is hard at the worst of times. I have the upmost respect for separated parents that manage to put differences aside on a personal level to make sure their children grow up happy.

I’m in a very similar scenario to @Magda72. DP’s approach is to say he will try and sort out a boundary between his exW and their now-adult dd (who is I’m sad to say an enabled helpless child) but then get it wrong and get sucked back in to the enabling via exW.

It’s got to the point whereby I’m not sure any of them deserve my patience or unconditional positive regard any more (shame because the dd is a victim of her upbringing) and as a result I can’t see our relationship lasting much longer. Because the new distance feels unnatural and not very ‘me’.

Neither myself nor @Magda72 share property or kids with these men - and that’s tough enough. Am going to be heartbroken because DP has been such a brilliant companion for the past 4 years. Good luck

I'm so sorry it has reached that point for you. It's awful when things out of your control take over.

Makes it very hard not to resent the situation.

I find DH gets sucked in himself with boundaries with ex and then faltering. Not out of lack of respect for what we've discussed, just again out of fear.

RPs of children seem to hold so much control, it's hard not to feel sorry for nrps when that control is used to further control them also. I know it happens the other way too, but it seems at least to me that at least when someone isn't able to really use your kids against you, you do have the ability to change things more. Even if it is hard.

Living in fear of losing your children must be awful.

That said, living with someone who is constantly in fear mode isn't much of a picnic either. I see now more than ever just why second marriages and relationships in general seem so hard for nrps to maintain.

It's a mine field and you're always likely to upset someone. Seems the new partner finds the brunt of that impact in their life. And there is only so much anyone can take of things outside of their control impacting their home and personal life.

I hope myself and DH never truly reach that point, although we have gotten close. I couldn't imagine losing him, least of all due to damage done outside of "us".

It must be a very hard step to finally accept defeat before you are fully defeated yourself.

So many step mums get labelled as wicked by default, yet a lot of the time no one ever truly looks at the bigger picture.

Yes you get bad eggs. But no matter how much you feel you know about entering into a relationship with someone with children, and how ready you are to cope. Nothing can prepare you for the curve balls or the lack of freedom in your own life. Right down to your partner being able to make their own parenting decisions without it causing a shitstorm.

Its bloody hardwork when its your home and life that is also impacted by all of that. Or worse, your childrens.

The basic concept of my last thread was the idea that sc must always come first and plans cancelled if they chose, no matter the impact on my DC. DH didn't agree thankfully. But things like that cause issues, cos well, its bloody wrong. I've never asked or expected my DC to come before anyone. Yet to hear they should come last is just ridiculous. As rightfully so if I suggested such towards sc all hell would kick off.

The whole "first and second families" should never be a thing. Regardless of everything else, all at the centre of that are innocent children. It doesn't matter who came first, it just matters what is fair for all. Just like in any normal family.

It's hard to be told your dcs feelings don't matter as much. When you invest so much love and time into theirs.

Or simple things like communication. My parents are elderly and both undergoing chemo, they live here currently for support. Yet we are never told if either sc are unwell until it is too late. Not that we would cancel contact for it, but we would adjust things and work around it so they had limited interaction. For obvious reasons. As we do our younger DC.

We always warn exW if our two are really unwell, not to cancel contact. Just to keep communication open. We consider this polite as at least in my family, we warn others we may be coming in contact with if we are ill or not. Then it is up for discussion what to do for the best for the kids.

I'm not talking colds or sniffles here. More serious stuff. Yet basic manners seem to go out the window when it's to do with exs in general.

Of course I wouldn't expect contact not to happen due to illness. If anything I know from experience if you're dealing with an ill kid - it is bloody exhausting and both parents should take the work of that. Just a bit of consideration and warning when known would be nice, so we can make plans to help reduce the risk of immune compromised being in contact as much as we can.

Same way as most wouldn't take someone ill directly to someone undergoing chemo and let them have close contact. At least I wouldn't.

Basically what I'm trying to say is, when a parent lacks respect for the other parent, it isn't just the children who suffer. Anyone in close contact feels the stress and strain if that and suddenly behaviour that you'd never deem acceptable in any other dynamic must be considered acceptable or you're an awful person. When life isn't as black and white as that. Everyone deserves a basic level of respect. Especially when others end up suffering for the game plays and manipulation/arguments. More often than not innocent people just unfortunate enough to be caught in the cross fire.