How do I help my children?

[CanILeavenowplease]

I am posting here because I really don't want answers of 'stop them seeing their father' which is what has happened when I have posted elsewhere in the past. It may be the only solution but perhaps this forum can give me another perspective. Apologies for long post.

Long story short, divorced 10 years following ex's long affair (years) with OW. OW now long gone and there have been a number of women in the interim - ex is one of those who does long relationships, 'love bombing', reels you in and then reveals his true self when he's confident you're over-invested in him. He's never willingly paid any maintenance - got to the point of having his house sold by the CSA and he has had a £0 assessment with the CSA/CMS for 5 years now. Thriving business, just avoids paying tax, lots of cash in hand. Seasoned liar - wouldn't know the truth if it slapped him in the face. Tried to gain residence of the children in the early stages and he is the only man I have ever known had a CAFCASS Officer recommend a reduction in contact (we were pretty much 50/50 but it was reduced to every other weekend and one night in the week). Hates me with a passion - I think I was supposed to commit suicide when he left and he really doesn't seem to understand how it might be that I have coped without him in my life perfectly well. That I am coping, happy, with friends etc. etc. seems to be the source of all his anger.

Our children have endured hearing all sorts of lies and rubbish about me over the years. We are now of an age when the mist has cleared and it is obvious to 2 out of 3 children just exactly what their dad is like. Eldest pragmatic and tries to keep the peace by nodding and agreeing. Middle child desperate for dad to love him so more nodding and agreeing. Youngest child not quite getting it but doesn't understand why dad hates me so much - and it is clear to him that he hates me. I try to be nonchalant, upbeat and gloss over it. I don't bad mouth the ex, we have a perfectly acceptable quality of life on my money alone and we manage. Contact happens, I am a good ex from a new partner's point of view as I am utterly disengaged and distant from my ex, contact is never interfered with (very strict schedule, we know where we stand with it), I never demand money or extra money or any help or support or anything else.

Most recent partner been around 4 years. She has swallowed the line that I am an evil, grasping ex and is abusive towards my children as a result. We have never met. Over the last 18 months, they have become more and more distressed following time with dad, angry at what has been said about me, and angry that dad has such a tight reign on them - won't take them to parties, won't allow them to have friends over, moans if they want to go on their tech, moans if they leave the tech alone and ask him to do something with them...you get the idea. The girlfriend is at the centre of it all - comments like 'I bet that bitch of a mother told you to say that', 'she's a fat, lazy cow' are said at every contact. It came to a head some months ago and she told my children to leave 'her' house (it is my ex's home, all paid for) and my ex finally told her to go.

She went. Only it was clear that she only left the house and their relationship continued. She visited on Xmas Day for example. Children have now been told that their dad loves her, they want to get back together and that she'll change. Middle child keeps repeating adult comments such as 'she's been part of my family for 4 years and I miss her', the eldest is angry and is set to tackle dad about it and the youngest is bursting into tears at the drop of a hat because he hates her and doesn't want to see her and knows that he's not really old enough to make a choice. I have suggested court - saying that I believe if he tells the judge what he's told me, they would more say that dad could have contact but away from the new girlfriend but he is worried 'he's my dad, he'll hate me if I take him to court'. Eldest has promised him that he will go to dad's as long as the youngest also has to go and middle one, despite the 'she has been part of my family' comments is insistent he wont' be going as long as she's there. I should also say that in the last 12 months, he has refused to go on a few ocassions in what has been an attempt to get his dad to listen to him - all failed from an outsiders point of view but he seems to feel happy he's made his point to his dad.

So what do I do? I want my children to have a relationship with their dad. They want a quiet, hassle-free relationship with their dad and are happy for him to be in a relationship as long as that relationship doesn't involve slagging me off constantly. I am powerless to stop mid-week contact for the youngest because I work 15 miles away and can't be there. School will hand him over as they have no reason not to. Other two are in secondary and can make a fuss at the gate if needed, although I suspect would go with him if it came down to it. We can control weekend contact because they are picked up from my house so they feel stronger in saying 'I'm not going' because I'm there to support them. He wont' mediate - have tried for 10 years to get him into mediation but he won't do it (I assume because he knows he's utterly in the wrong on most things and would prefer not to face that). My children are stressed, upset and about to lose their father - I feel I might as well have played the alienation game (because lord knows, I had good reason to) and I just don't know what to do to help them.

I’m sorry but I have alarm bells ringing here.

Your DC have come home and told you these things and your response is to suggest court to them? That they could testify against their father and that could help the situation? Are you for real? Do you have any idea just how stressful that sort of responsibility would be on a young child? It will cause intense emotional, mental pressure and intense conflict also.

I’m aghast that your response to this situation is to tell your children that that is even an option. There are so many other places you could have gone for support, support for your children before even putting that pressure on them.

Their school as an example. Family counselling (starting with you and your children). Your ex can refuse mediation but you keep pushing for this and you attend if needs be. Making it very clear (in writing to the ex) that you are there to help resolve this situation and focus on the emotional welfare of the children. There are many things you could have tried and should be trying. As opposed to telling your kids (which I do believe is parental alienation actually) that if they tell a judge what they told you, it would help.

I have no idea what is going on in your exH’s home. But I will also say that as a partner, my DP’s DC have gone home after contact stating that I said ‘xyz’ when I absolutely categorically did not.

Sorry. Maybe I’m projecting. But I don’t believe it is as cut and dried as you are making out. And your handling of it leads me to believe that there is a lot more to this at play.

Hmmm....I take your point. The court suggestion comes from a place of not knowing what to do but I do see that it is perhaps too much. There is no alienation on my part. Quite the opposite. I am trying to keep them seeing dad rather than just have them say they won't go (which is what it is beginning to happen). The children want to see their dad, they don't want to be subjected to all kinds of whatever it is that is going on - and I believe it to be abuse on the girlfriend's part and some kind of passive abuse on the ex's part as he stands by and watches it happen.

I think you are suggesting that my children are saying what I want to hear - that the girlfriend is rude about me. I have certainly never asked for that and until the last 18 months or so, have rarely spoken beyond 'did you have a good weekend?' 'yes, we went swimming and had chicken for lunch'. We never spoke about her and they seemed happy enough around her. Things changed following an incident last Xmas in which the children were told unless they bought the ex 'better' presents, they wouldn't be allowed to go round anymore (they had used their own money and bought him some cheap chocolate, bearing in mind I got exactly the same and of course, I was delighted so the contrast was huge). Things escalated from there - absolutely everything we do has been picked over. A change in job for me, for example, meant that I could no longer drive my eldest to school. She told him - apparently - that she loved him more than I did because she was concerned about drink drivers who might knock him over and that if I wasn't such a lazy bitch, I would drive him. He can go on his bike, like hundreds of other children, and he couldn't understand the issue but he was subjected to abuse about 'what kind of mother' I am. I have meetings in the morning - like thousands of others in my profession around the country - but she used my need to get to work for the meeting as an opportunity to tell my children that I was 'obviously being monitored and if she's not careful, she'll lose her job'. Those are not my words, not words I have said to a friend that they could have overheard. There is no reason to express such an opinion in their earshot - except to somehow put me down (and in the process, upset the children because a parent losing a job is an upsetting thing). My holiday activity choice was dismissed as 'stupid and dangerous' (we went on a mine visit/trip that they loved) She buys her own child icecream on trips out - but nothing for mine. She makes her child pancakes for breakfast but not mine (and my ex apparently makes her child breakfast so it's not some kind of split of responsibilities). She called them 'rude and bad mannered, just like your fucking mother' which, frankly, is ridiculous given she has never met me! It is hard to imagine that they are making this up - what is the point? I don't want to see a 10 year old child sobbing at the idea of going to his dad's house. I have a full and active social life and friendships and enjoy my time away from them. I don't need to guilt trip them about not being here. There is no reason for them to stay with me or for me to want to curtail contact. I am pleased - absolutely - that the eldest in particular now sees what the ex is like but that's all come from him, not me.

What is it you think family counselling with just me and the children will achieve? You assume I am in the wrong, I suppose? And that in a safe environment, that is what will come out? Mediation alone is pointless. Why would I attend mediation unless I was considering court - mediators are not trained in psychology or counselling so assuming I am the problem here, in what way could they help if I am alone? I can't mediate with myself, can I? The issue needs to be discussed with the ex. If he refuses to mediate - which he has done for 10 years - how is it that I am the one in the wrong?! I get it - I may have inadvertently projected some of my feelings for the ex onto the children and they may be picking up on that - but that doesn't explain why the girlfriend feels the need to behave in the way she is doing. It's pretty playground level stuff and I don't retaliate. What are the children getting out of it?

There is no point in writing to the ex. He refuses to acknowledge me at any level. Won't even text anymore as the eldest has a phone. He just sends messages through the child. I do text him - I refuse to use the children to relay messages. I will talk to the school.

I don’t know where to start.... your post is so long you sound so emotionally engaged with your EH that it’s clouding matters.

You have been divorced 10 years but it comes across as you are still so emotionally engaged with your EH.

You say he tells lies about you but you are ‘utterly disengaged’. It doesn’t come across that way. So what? Disengage. It doesn’t matter what he thinks or may say about you. You can’t control him, you can only control how you react.

You’ve never met his GF of 4 years (odd). And she thinks, says.... yada yada yada.... it doesn’t matter.

You want mediation, he doesn’t. You can’t control this or him.

All you can do is support the children’s relationship with the father. The way I read it at the moment is that you are alienating that relationship.

Have you thought about some counselling to help you deal with things?

I have no issue with what the ex thinks/says about me. The children do. Or should they go into his home and be happy to hear god only knows what and be treated like second class citizens?

If I am alienating them, how am I doing that? I take the point about court. I won't mention it again, fair enough. Do I refuse to discuss what goes on when they want to tell me?

Jesus. The woman is emotionally abusing these children and the op needs counselling for being upset about this situation? Fucking ridiculous.

honestly, i'd be telling him he could only see them without her around.

If what you're saying is true, and she has said all those things then no I don't think that's a healthy situation for your children to be in.

I do think that their dad probably is not much better if he's standing around happy for his GF to say that in front of your kids, but he is still their dad.

if he doesn't want mediation id be tempted to let him take you to court, but realistically with no proof of what she's said they may well get access anyway.

I suppose your children are getting to an age where they can decide for themselves, but I still wouldn't be happy about them spending their time with someone like that really.

There is no alienation on my part. Quite the opposite. I am trying to keep them seeing dad rather than just have them say they won't go

Maybe the best thing you could do is LISTEN to what they're saying to you?

It's so fashionable to talk about avoiding parental alienation and not "using the children as a weapon" (horrible phrase anyway), that I think we've societally forgotten that some contact with some parents is just plain damaging.

On this occasion I couldn't possibly disagree with you more @NorthernSpirit

These children desperately want permission to draw their own boundaries in their dealings with a toxic father.

I agree with @ColeHawlins. My kids have issues with their df. Nothing to do with our divorce but rather him as a person & his life choices/behaviour. I have always helped and supported my kids relationship with their dad but over the years they expressed sadness & worry to me regarding some of his behaviour & for me to disagree with them would have meant me colluding with his behaviours & basically saying his behaviour was ok - which would have totally negated my kids feelings.
That being said I never criticized him as a person, I was always careful to only criticize the behaviour & this is what therapists recommend.
My kids now call their dad out themselves as they have developed the self confidence to do so. Sometimes he listens & sometimes he doesn't but at least the kids are feeling less powerless & more in control.
@CanILeavenowplease I would suggest family therapy for you & your dc in order to get some pointers on how to move forward with regard to their dad and his domestic situation. I totally get that you don't want to be the one jeopardizing their relationship with their dad but if they are that unhappy & stressed about going to his house they need support in order to make decisions around this.
Your ex is unlikely to ever listen or change & you know this so you & your dc need to decide what's best for their mental health moving forward & that maybe only seeing their dad away from his gf, or maybe not seeing him at all if he wouldn't be amenable to that.
I agree with @stealthmode that kids often say what they think their dm wants to hear - my dp's kids do this too; they put a spin on things for their dm. However I don't get the impression from your posts that that's what's happening here.

Family therapy is for them to vent their emotions in a safe neutral space and for an independent person to listen and carefully guide them to a place where they can build coping mechanisms and critical thinking...which in turn enables them to make decisions in a healthy way. That’s what family therapy does. It’s for your children. The very fact that you view that advice as my implying you’re wrong, shows to me just how high conflict this situation is. There’s no right or wrong in this situation, but there are clear actions that are based on the emotional needs of the children. That’s why I advised therapy. If this was happening in my home there is absolutely no way I would try and handle it alone and I certainly wouldn’t say ‘hey kids. Tell you what, talk to a judge and it will make this all stop’. Awful behaviour.

Because the reality is that a cessation of contact (as some are advising on here) will also not benefit them and they will feel immense guilt/ conflict. How some parents think this is the ‘right thing to do’ staggers me.

It’s clear to me that as much as you say you’re removed from this situation and what happens in that home, you’re not. Your lengthy posts show the exact opposite.

Mediators as an FYI, can also be trained counsellors (mine was) who basically work with families in exactly these situations around children in order to prevent family court proceedings and the children being interviewed (which is incredibly emotionally damaging for the children).

There are many options available to you. Many.
That don’t involve you telling your poor children that they can take their dad to court. Horrible behaviour and whether you see it or not, alienating behaviour from your side.

@stealthmode I do agree with you. However I also think that there are times when IF a parent chooses to stay high conflict with an ex (as seems to be the case here with OP's ex choosing to stay high conflict with her) & if that ex is being supported by a partner in this endeavor & will not listen to reason then the other parent has to intervene in access - for the sake of the kids. A therapist once likened it to tackling a school re bullying despite a kid asking you not to, ie the kid really needs you in their corner but is too afraid to say so.
My exh is a highly manipulative person which stems from issues with alcohol. I have managed my post divorce relationship with him very well but when he falls off the wagon & his parenting becomes affected everyone, including his dw, colludes with him and excuses his behaviour. When this happened & my kids were younger I had to control access, & now they're older I have to tell my kids this behaviour is not good & that they don't have to go there when he's like this, because if I don't I'm negating my kids right to feel safe & am as good as saying not coming home on a Friday night, telling no one where you are & spending all weekend hungover is an ok way to be around your kids.
There is no way I want to cause any damage to my kids relationship with their dad but when HE behaves like this HE damages his relationship with them & I won't cover up for him in that.
I think the op has a similar situation here in that she is promoting a relationship that her ex is damaging all by himself & she runs the risk of the kids thinking neither parent has their corner.
All that being said she needs to proceed with care & caution & family therapy for her & the dc would be a great idea.
And no she's not handling it well but I can remember being in that place of feeling like a rabbit in the headlights - desperately wanting my kids to be ok with their dad & yet being worried sick that I was leaving them vulnerable to him & honestly not being able to see or think straight.
Therapy got me out of that hole & for the most part my kids now deal with any issues they have with their dad themselves. They love him & have a great relationship with him, but all the while acknowledging he is a flawed human who sometimes behaves in a not so great or safe way & when that happens they remove themselves from him.
This is really complex stuff & there's no easy solution unfortunately.

I don't see why all 3 children would make up lies that the GF slags you off... unless they don't want to see their dad and think this is the only way they can get out of it with your support.

I guess I'm wondering why you want them to continue being distressed by this, when its obvious your Ex doesn't have their best interests at heart.

Even if he hates you...he knows the DC don't...and wouldn't want to hear you being bad mouthed...so why would a half decent father allow that to happen? You can't control him, but surely you can see the effect this is having on your DC. I think their wellbeing needs to be your top priority. In the long run, when they grow up, you have to think about whether they'll feel let down by the fact that you didn't intervene and allow them to stop seeing him, because children being subjected to hearing such talk about their mother is abusive. Your job is to protect them, because he won't.

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I don't believe you're alienating them at all as some pp have said.

Counselling via the school is a good suggestion as mentioned.

A lot to think about. Thank you. It is shocking to me that a man can abandon a pregnant woman, clear the accounts, take the roof from over his children’s heads, tell the most dreadful lies to cover his poor behaviour, drag me through court for residence then not see the children for 15 month (his choice), refuse to pay maintenance, live with women who slag me off, slag me off himself.....and it’s me who’s the bad person. The devil is in the detail because the short version - ex’s girlfriends slags me off, what do I do - would have had people demanding additional info. Can’t win.

These children desperately want permission to draw their own boundaries in their dealings with a toxic father

Sums up my feelings of where we are currently at. I am therapy averse because my ex himself is a counsellor and, well, he’s utterly shit yet makes plenty of money from it. I have contacted a psychologist so we’ll see. The situation has always been high conflict on his part and I have spent at least 9 1/2 years ignoring it as best I can. He hates me - really not an issue - I suspect the children have always known that but in 8 1/2 years we never had a contact refusal. Something shifted and here we are. I haven’t personally changed what I do but the anger does co-incident with me down grading my job to less hours (because I could afford to) and the girlfriend losing hers. Who knows, eh?

As for court, I simply wanted to find a solution that would have some power behind it from an enforcement point of view because he will dismiss anything I say as rubbish. If the children say what they have said to me to others, there would, I think, be enough for them to get a change. I accept it wasn’t my finest hour but I just want them to be safe. They’re not.

As for court, I simply wanted to find a solution that would have some power behind it from an enforcement point of view because he will dismiss anything I say as rubbish. If the children say what they have said to me to others, there would, I think, be enough for them to get a change. I accept it wasn’t my finest hour but I just want them to be safe. They’re not

From what you say, the youngest is about ten and the other two a big older? It's certainly old enough to have a say, legally speaking.

Awful behaviour

I just can’t let this go. After all my children have endured, after years of ignoring, doing everything possible to ensure they have all they need ( working three jobs at one point), after working hard to ignore how his behaviour affected me and promote contact anyway, you think my behaviour is awful? The current situation needs to change. I am not sure what else would work - even seeing a counsellor won’t have any real impact because he will ignore it and demand to see them anyway and will make life difficult at school who have no legal right - without a court order to the contrary - to stop him picking them up.

You don’t have a clue what both the children and I have endured and what they continue to endure.

My ds comes home and says - 'DSM/Dad told me off for xxxx' my response = 'well you are not aloud to do that here either and it's really annoying when you do so serves you right'

This has always been my response. I frequently say that how their dad deals with issues on his time is up to him and how I deal with it is up to me. I teach for a living - I have a very acute understanding of how underdmining it can be if a parent says one thing and the school rule is something else. This is no different.

It is not me who is high conflict.

Don't let the some of the response get to you.

Not every counsellor is like your Ex. There are very good ones. Some schools provide a counselling service for pupils and they can also counsel parents.

You can try a counsellor and stop the sessions if you don't like them.

The important thing is to listen to and protect your DC, so they don't end up resenting your lack of action.

You've been the consistent parent and after everything you've done, imagine how you'll feel when they become adults if they decide to cut contact with you because of the damage this has done to them.

You’ve had some odd responses on here OP.

Your ex and his girlfriend sound like utter cunts. Taking out their feelings about you on the kids is disgusting behaviour.

This will be really damaging for the kids and you can’t just nod along when they tell you what they’ve been saying/doing. I agree that therapy either family or individual might help. It could help you to find a way to deal with it or if the impact on the kids is really bad it could help you gain the confidence to go to court etc to protect the kids from this.