just had holiday from hell with rude and whingey step sons - need parenting tips

[valleygirl]

not sure whether this should go under parenting or step-patenthood, so hopefully some non-step parents out there will be able to offer some advice.
i have just returned from a 10 day holiday to italy with my dp and his two sons who are 4 and (nearly) 7. the kids normally spend almost every weekend with us and 1 night a week for the past two and a half years and i was really looking forward to our first "family" holiday abroad. we have been away together before but only to my parents in wales, so the problems we faced was nothing to do with never having spent an extended amount of time with the two boys on holiday.
We spent most of our time trying to break up their fights, their bickering, their unruly behaviour - the eldest bullied his brother and developed this attitude problem towards us where he answered back in a totally cocky and arrogant way. the youngest spent an unbeleiveable amount of time whining and sayign "i want, i want, i want....."
everything we tried failed, from allocating a "naughty" area, to a calm and firm talk about how unacceptable dss1 attitude problem was, all the way to threats and shouting. by the end of the holiday i had had enough and was the first time since i went to gran canaria on holiday that i was dying to come home!! the worst thing is is this will be my only holiday this year unless i go away with out dp, which i may have to to make up for this disasterous one!
is their behavious normal? is it normal for 2 boys to constantly be in competition with each other, to be endlessly jealous of what the other one has, to be constantly physically violent towards one another - what works for you to put an end to this? i mean there's always been a degree of this but on this holiday it was increased tenfold to unbareable levels. so much so that i doubt i want to repeat the experience and spend precious holiday time in their company.
sounds really mean but i was pushed to the limit and i've been the queen of patience these last 2 nd a half years.
sorry so long. hope someone has encouraging words of advice!!

[frogs]

Okay, I'll have an attempt at this one. Mine aren't stepkids, they're mine and dh's, aged 9, 5 and 7 months. Dh has a taste for holidays involving lots of visits to archaeological sites, so strategies are essential.

First off, is your stepsons' behaviour normal? Yes, left to their own devices kids are prone to being competitive, demanding and argumentative. This is likely to be worse on holiday when their normal routine, with its rules and expectations has been suspended. I think they also suffer from the buildup to a holiday, expecting it to be somehow amazingly fantastic, and are then obscurely disappointed and resentful when it doesn't live up to their expectations.

Is this kind of thing inevitable? No, not necessarily, but the potential for it is always there, and you need to anticipate problems rather than reacting to them. It helps to plan a holiday like the Normandy Landings if you want to minimise trouble.

I make a point of outlining to the children very clearly what's going to happen, eg. 'We're going to do one activity for you and one for me and dh every day. If you spoil the day for me and dh, then we won't want to take you to the waterpark the day after' (or whatever). I prefer this to the 'naughty step' type system advocated by Supernanny, as it's a consequence of the kids' behaviour rather than a punishment as such. I also always make it clear in advance that there will be a maximum of (say) one ice cream per day, and warn that anybody who whines for it won't get one at all.

I go out of my way to explain to them how they need to behave in order to make it nice for everyone -- eg. 'Now you're both sensible children, so I'm sure you can find a way to divide up the shells so that nobody feels they haven't got enough'. Another line that works for me when one is deliberately winding the other up is: 'Why are you trying to make X angry? She's horrible when she's angry." If one is jealous of the other it can help to make that explicit, eg. "Why are you kicking her? Do you feel she's got more than you?"

It also helps to engage the children's interest. My dh will witter on endlessly about eg. the Romans throwing people to the lions when he's taking them round a site, or explain about the evil eye symbol in Turkey, and ask them to try and spot where they can see it. Sometimes we need to take a child each (harder with more than two!) to make each one feel special and appreciated.

sorry for long reply -- hope it gives you some ideas!

[lou33]

Good advice from Frogs. I also think that heat makes a great difference. My children fight and bicker so much more when they are too hot (they are 12,7,5 and 3), especially the 7 and 5 year old.

[cuppy]

Valleygirl - have just had the same experience except we didnt go away. We had dh dd (9yrs) and ds (6yrs) for two weeks, as well as our dd (6mths). God do i need a holiday!!
These two were CONSTANTLY in competition with each other ( if I hear 'she sat in the middle last time' one more time...!
Always trying to get each other in to trouble. Never finished their meals but would eat sweets after. Always driving me bananas!!!
but I have been assured this is normal. Just think maybe I found it harder as I am not used to having children of this age group 24/7.

Off now to enjoy the silence

[valleygirl]

thank you for the replies - Frogs espeially had lots of good advice. I guess the problem might be a little more deep seated than i'd imagined. i spoke to my mum last night about the whole issue and she (who has spent enough time with the kids to get an overall objective view of their behaviour) thinks that the eldest has got some behavioural problems that are above and beyond the usual playing up. i guess after the holiday i'd begun to lose perspective a bit and began to wonder whether i was just being unfairly judgemental, so to hear my mum say that she thinks dss1 has a nasty mean streak is, in some perverse way, quite reassuring.
Perhaps what the holiday was was just an extended version of what we put up with on a weekly basis only usually it;s just over the space of a day and a half over the weekend.
I mean when 85% of the dramas and tears are caused by dss1's treatment of dss2 isn't it more than just boisterous boy behavious. isn't it bullying? i'm just a bit at a loss on what to do, though i have indicated to my dp that he needs to address this with his ex, which is not going to be easy as she will automatically see it as an attack on her parenting.
perhaps i should post on behaviour thread?
thanks for support as always.

[SofiaAmes]

My dh and I used to take his 3 children on holiday every year for 2 weeks in Italy. It wasn't great Then we had our ds and it got worse and then our dd and it was awful. Last year with all 5 kids in tow to Italy was hands down the worst holiday I have ever had in my life. I swore never ever again. This year we are going with just our 2 (leaving on sat.) and I'm sure it will be a wonderful appreciated holiday. Don't blame yourself. You aren't a saint and it is enormously hard to parent children that are largely parented in another home that has different values and rules to yours.

[edam]

I think the three year age gap is a really difficult one. My sister and I fought terribly for years; really nasty stuff, including physical fighting. Yet let anyone outside criticise one of us and the other would rush to her defence. And we are really close.
I've heard the same story from lots of other parents/children with similar age gaps; it's normal for siblings to have a real go at each other, to an extent that can be quite shocking if you aren't used to it. BUT that's when it is six of one and half a dozen of the other, if it is always the biggest and strongest having a go at the littlest then you do have to intervene, I think, and point out why it's not on.

[valleygirl]

i'm totally prepared for a degree of sibling rivalry and fighting but as you pint out it's so
believe me we have constant talks with dss1 about why violence is totally unacceptable behaviour. he understands the concept of bullying in school but seems unable to apply that definition to the way he treats his brother.
we had a very long chat with him abotu how violence and rudeness were two behaviour traits we would absolutely not tolerate, but after the initial tears it's back to square one a few hours later.

[valleygirl]

must review my typing - keep gettign interupted at work!
to finish my sentence: the violence is so one sidded. when dss2 makes dss1 cry it's usually either an accident or it self defence.

[hercules]

It really does sound like an attention thing. Dont envy you at all when majority of parenting is being done elsewhere.