Boarding and Maintenance

[Storm15]

My DSD has recently started boarding 2/3 nights a week which my DH is paying for. DSD was desperate to do it; her school offers flex-boarding and lots of her friends do a few nights a week. She loves it and DH is happy for her to do it.

My DH sees a quite a bit of my DSD and she spends around 125 nights a year with him at the moment. There is a contact order in place and an SRO but she's getting to an age where she's old enough to decide for herself what she wants to do with her weekends so I guess that will become an increasingly 'rough' estimate.

DH has always paid the CSA required maintenance as a minimum. We pay for DSD's school fees, uniform, activities and any other school-related expenses out of our joint income. He pays the maintenance. He also picks up the bill for DSD's birthday parties, mobile phone, haircuts etc.

We're OK financially at the moment but I think we're going to struggle in the future. We have younger children who are all starting school, come September we'll have three sets of school fees and one set of nursery fees to contend with.

We're not certain DH should really be paying maintenance at all. My understanding is that the boarding element of school fees gets deducted from maintenance? Also, if you add up the nights DSD is boarding and the nights she spends with DH, it means DH is financially responsible for her over 50% of the nights per annum but while I can see on the CMS website that if she was spending 50% of the nights per annum with him, no maintenance would be due, I can't see if boarding nights would for maintenance purposes, count as his?

He's not paying via CSA and he wasn't married to Mum. He just transfers an agreed sum to Mum's bank account each month and picks up everything else directly. I'm struggling to find much info on the web. The CMS section on direct.gov seems quite thin..

I think its time to make things official and sort out the nitty gritty of it all.

Sounds more like your dh is paying his ex for very little to do with his dd. is it a large figure ? does dsd mum work ? if not , is this out of choice because your dh funds that choice. ? I would ring the cms and ask them if I was you. It seem s unlikely he should be paying very much at all if anything , going on what you've said as he has her /covers fees over 50% of time and mother is also expected to contribute. Tread gently though as its really up to your dh and although maintenance comes from him, it's money that you intimate could be used for school fees for your children and he may feel uncomfortable taking from her 'pot' to give to your joint dcs. Do you really have to pay fees if it would be that much of a struggle, education is free in the UK

On the face of it, it looks as though he shouldn't be paying anything and his ex should be paying him if he has DSD more than she does.

I think you need to take proper legal advice. It seems very unfair that his younger children may be disadvantaged because he is paying out so much for her. It should be equitable.

No, it's not a large figure. If you take away what we're spending on the boarding portion of DSD's school fees from what my DH pays in maintenance each year there would be around £1k left.

Mum works 16 hours a week in what I expect is a minimum wage job. She's single and has another child who I don't believe she receives maintenance for. There's no question our combined income is more than hers. But our outgoings are too. In relation to DSD, our outgoings are much higher. Regardless of receiving maintenance, CB and tax credits for DSD, Mum has always been quick to let DH / me know when DSD needs anything. We either buy it or if she does, she sends us the receipts!

DH and Mum split when DSD was teeny and access was fraught for a number of years. DH has always paid the same amount in maintenance, regardless of contact, which has steadily increased. He's also had more children but this has never impacted the maintenance she received either.

Our outgoings are increasing and it's not sustainable. The fact that we're paying for pretty much everything yet still paying maintenance is getting hard to ignore.

DH very reluctant to call the CMS having experienced the incompetence of the CSA. Are the CMS really any different?

I would suggest he suggested reducing the amount he pays by the amount he's paying for the boarding. That way you aren't losing out. And chances are of she went to the CSA she'd be advised that she'd get less via them in respect to both the boarding and the nights you have DSD.

It's possible though that DSD's mum might say that she'd rather have the money and that DSD didn't board. That could mean DSD is the loser. I wouldn't have thought your DP could insist on flexi-boarding if his ex didn't support it without taking it to court.

Do the CSA say anything about boarding?

Yes, Yellowdaisies, I think that's as far as he wants to go, just deducting the boarding bit. And yeah, we're anticipating her turning around and saying she'd rather have the cash.... In that instance I think DH would be driven to pay through the CSA / CMS. CSA website says the boarding part of school fees can be deducted from maintenance.

Yes but would she then decide DSD shouldn't board? ie has it been her decision, as RP, or was it your DP's decision, as the person who pays the fees?

It was DSD's decision really. DH and Mum both said it was up to DSD.

I think it's quite likely Mum would threaten to stop boarding. Less likely she'd follow through with it. I think DSD would get quite upset. If she did follow through with it, DH would mostly likely just carry on paying for both.

It's a question of whether she'd call his bluff then really if she threatens to stop the boarding but thinks your DP would pay both maintenance and boarding if she pushed him.

An alterative, softer, option could be to ask her what she thinks would be a reasonable contribution from the maintenance towards the boarding cost. She must be saving a bit by not feeding DSD 2 nights a week (though probably much less than the cost of boarding)

I am in a similar position but am the RP. It is interesting to me that boarding can be deducted from maintenance. A large % of my maintenance received is paid out by me for Council tax - I already get the single person 25% deduction but it doesn't fall any more if my DC boards or not; likewise for electricity and gas - there may be a marginal saving but not much. In fact I believe that my travel and car costs are going to increase substantially yet I am not considering going back to court to increase my maintenance. Perhaps I should?

Your informal arrangement seems to have worked well for both families to date and DSD sees plenty of both parents. That's a great outcome.

It does sound though as if the change of heart here is coming more from your view of your future costs and the boarding is being used as an excuse. It would be a pity if financial pressure placed on mum caused her to refuse DSD to board. Yellow daisies suggestion of a gentle conversation could work but don't be surprised if the saving is quite minimal - food for 1 person for a couple of nights is quite small.

Agreed, the savings to Mum resulting from DSD boarding will be small compared to the cost to Dad. (I don't really understand your comment regarding travel costs though; surely boarding means less travel? It does in the case of my DSD anyway, on the weeks she boards for 2 nights it saves Mum 4 x school runs and on the weeks she boards for 3 nights, it saves 6).

It doesn't alter the fact that a situation where DH is paying above the odds for DSD is no longer sustainable for us and something has to change. Mum should surely also contribute to DSD's increasing costs, whether that is by accepting a decrease in maintenance or by starting to use the maintenance for what it's actually supposed to be used for. She must also contribute. The responsibility should not solely rest with DH / us.

DH has written an email which he's going to follow up with a phone call later stating that DSD's costs are going up and he'd like to have a conversation about who is responsible for what within those costs. If they don't come to an agreement, I think he'll get in touch with the CMS but ask them to disregard the boarding when they make their calculations or just not mention it. I'm certain at that juncture Mum would pull DSD out of boarding and as others have rightly stated, DSD would be the one losing out.

I do contribute towards DSD. All of our kids' school fees come out of our joint account, which we pay into equally. Same goes for all of her other expenses. It's only maintenance that doesn't. That is NOT my responsibility!

Thank you everyone.

Don't deduct the boarding fees from the maintenance. (a) the amount of money saved in household expenses due to DSD not being there a couple of nights a week will be tiny compared to the boarding fees. DSD's mum still needs to pay to rent heat and tax the family home and that doesn't get cheaper due to an empty bedroom. The maximum it would be reasonable to deduct would be the cost of the ingredients for one portion of the evening meal plus the travel cost of one round trip between home and school for each night boarded. (b) presumably DSD loves both her parents? But if her dad causes her mum serious financial hardship by deducting boarding fees from maintenance (in effect, unilaterally forcing his ex to spend almost all the maintenance money on boarding fees which is in itself unreasonable) that is going to sour her relationship with her dad and it will not end well.

Maintenance to the ex will surely stop when DSD is 18 anyway. A gradual reduction now would make sense so that the mum can start looking for ways to support herself in 2 years time.

OP - is your DP paying the boarding fees direct to the school (is the school contract with him, or her mother)?

If so, it could be argued that he is responsible for his DD on the nights she boards at school, and is, in effect, her primary carer as overall, he is her carer for over 50% of the time. Your household is therefore eligible for CB and tax credits etc (depending on income) for your DSD and child maintenance from her mum.

Direct to the school. We just pay the termly bill. Boarding fees are on it.

We wouldn't ever claim CB / tax credits or maintenance from Mum. I mean not unless we both lost our jobs or something but boarding wouldn't be an issue if that happened anyway - that would definitely be the end of private school!

I would just like Mum to recognise that we alone are not responsible for DSD's costs nor can we alone be expected to shoulder the burden of each increase to the costs.

We wouldn't ever claim CB / tax credits or maintenance from Mum.

I'm not suggesting you would, but it might help justify your position/feelings in your own minds if you realise that if things were being done "by the book", the situation would be very different.

There is no reason why you should feel "unreasonable" for expecting your DSDs mum to meet the costs of her boarding from the maintenance contribution that your household is making.

Thank you. I don't feel unreasonable really. I feel a bit mean mainly because I'm aware that DH and I have good jobs and each other but I have to be realistic and so does DH. It can't just be about DSD for us. He's gone along with it all for years for fear of more drama, more court action, less access etc and Mum's taken advantage. DSD is getting older now, more able to make her own mind up regarding access (she's also a very balanced, independent, bright, secure and headstrong child which helps) and the 'threats' Mum has historically made, are losing weight.

A conversation sounds a good idea. But if DSD's mum isn't prepared to cough up much, and finances are tight in both households, then you may need to say to DSD that she can't board any more. Or maybe just one night a week.

You can't really claim to DSD's mum that you need to reduce her maintenance but at the same time that you can afford for DSD to part board. She's going to say, "well stop paying the boarding because I need the money"

It does sound as if your DH is paying for much more than he ought to be, but if that's the way it's been for a long time, these things can be hard to change without causing a lot of upset.

How old is DSD? Is there an end in sight to her school fees?

Yep, I get what you're saying. She's early teens. So yes, it might be the case that if Mum won't budge, DH and Mum could jointly tell DSD they can only afford boarding once a week. That sounds like a very good option. I think DSD's mature enough to hear that. I'll suggest it to DH.

Does her mother have a job?

I'm struggling to see why your DH is paying so much. If it's 50/50 he shouldn't be paying anything, surely.

I wrote above, Mum works 16 hours a week in what I would think is a minimum wage job.

The reason he's paying so much, and things have become what they are, is because he paid full whack when DSD was a baby and he had no contact. He fought for contact, long, hard and successfully but as contact increased, maintenance stayed the same. As we had children of our own, maintenance still stayed the same for fear of pissing Mum off for want of a better expression. When Mum asked for something his response was always yes, I'll sort it. But it's no longer sustainable.

Partly his fault. Partly the fault of a flawed system.

He needs to start saying no, I think, and get a proper assessment of what he has to pay. No reason for your DCs to go without to keep DSD's mum on her backside in comfort, she needs to get a job with more hours.

Who made the decision that your DSD should go to private school if her mum can't afford it and her dad pays the fees? At the end of the day, it sounds like your DH just needs to have the conversation that he simply cannot afford overnight fees. DSDs mum still needs to pay all the household costs associated with having a child in the house except food.
It seems to me that you are taking the view that what DSD wants, she should get; whereas in reality, her family can't afford it. That is the conversation lots of people have to have with their kids, whether or not it causes upset.

I agree with Romeyroo.

People with minimum wage jobs don't usually send their children to fee paying schools, so I think it is a bit unreasonable to expect her to pay towards this.

Maintenance is to provide a roof over children's heads. Even if she was boarding all term time, she would still need a warm, comfortable home in the holidays.

Decision was made jointly by her parents when DSD became unhappy at her old school (it merged with another and a lot of things changed, several children left and several of them moved to the school DSD is now at). DH and I agreed we could manage the fees. I don't think anyone has any issue with her going to the school's she at.

Conversation has been had. Mum wasn't prepared to lose any maintenance, nor did she want DSD to stop boarding. DH has said that isn't going to realistic for us from September, especially if he's still expected to pick up all the extras. Both he and Mum have contacted the CSA now.