When can a "child" be held accountable for their own choices?

[WakeyCakey45]

Like many stepmums, I've repeatedly been hurt and rejected by my DSC. I understand all the reasons why; the conflict they feel, the fear they have of upsetting their mum, the punitive consequences they are subject to if they challenge her, and the bewilderment of coming to terms with their mums determination to exclude DH (and I) from their lives.

But, do those reasons justify their choices and behaviour for life? Or does there come a point when an adult child, particularly one who acknowledges they treat certain people badly, can no longer be excused?

My DSD is approaching adulthood and independence. She is aware that her behaviour has hurt DH, myself and my DD. Yet, it continues. Her fear of what may happen is too great to risk upsetting her mum.

DSD behaviour is understandable, but is it something I should accept and tolerate? Should I continue to accept her poor behaviour towards me because of the hostility of her mum? For how long?

And if so, should I not be equally tolerant and accepting of her mums behaviour? Because her mum was a child victim, too. Should emotional abuse in childhood be accepted as a reason for treating others badly in adult life? Should I put my own feelings, and those of my DD to one side, in order to accomodate the emotional limitations of my DSD, and her mum, because those limitations are the result of abuse?

So why does the prospect of her feeling rejected by you, cause you such anguish? If you were to reject her, or rather simply tell her she needs to go to her dad for whatever help she thinks she needs, and explain why you won't get involved, why does the prospect of her feeling rejected by you after setting out your reasons for that course of action, seem like a difficult choice?

It sounds to me like that reaction by your DSD somehow bothers you, even if you have good reason, now, to not get involved. The reality of why you won't help -v- DSD's perception is IMO exactly why you should be clear that you won't now help & why - because if DSD is reverting to type & likely to just blame you/others for the obvious consequences of her behaviour, then the sooner she gets an honest reaction to her learned, manipulative, behaviour, the better for her in the long run.

Having her in your living room, feeling rejected, might well be uncomfortable/awkward for you, but I can't see 'faking' not being hurt by her behaviour a more comfortable or helpful response to DSD's request for help.

If I'd turned her away when she turned up drunk, or under arrest, told her it wasn't my problem, that she was a big girl, and needed to sort things out for herself, what would that have led to?

The first time I would take her in as you did. The second time I would also take her in but I would make it clear (the next day) that I wouldn't be doing it again. The third time I would turn her away.

Otherwise, she clearly wouldn't think I mean what I say and would continue to behave like this. We usually only change our behaviour when there are consequences for it that we don't like.

Having her in your living room, feeling rejected, might well be uncomfortable/awkward for you

It's a bit more than that, though, isn't it? Because, depending on what the crisis of the moment is (and these happen several months apart, not weekly) I may then be involved in discussions about financial support, change of address or boundaries, and if I have disengaged, then not only am I not supporting my DH in that, he will be restricted in how he can support her.

I hope she does disentangle herself, but having read many of the stately homes threads, I'm not sure she will.

Sorry, need to add, is your fear over rejecting your DSD's overtures towards you seeking help, linked to a concern your DH isn't capable of providing the help you think DSD needs? From what you've described, is it your understanding that maybe your DSD feels her dad can't help? And as a result you feel morally obliged to step in, every time, because your DSD rejects her dad's efforts to help her? Do you think being DSD's 'rescuer' is going to lead to an improvement in her attitude towards her dad/his efforts to help? Is this ultimately about you feeling the urge to help for your DH's sake, to help 'rescue' his relationship with his DD, at the expense of your own feelings? Is there an explicit or even implied expectation on you to fill that role from your DH, and that is why you are struggling with being someone who is honest towards your DSD about the impact of her behaviour towards you?

Ultimately, if your DH is also not willing to allow your DSD to experience the consequences of her attitude/behaviour because he wants to be her rescuer, and in some way expects you to experience the hurt & rejection he's endured in order to gain that trust from his DD, then I think he too is failing his DD in not allowing her to fully understand the impact & implications of her, learned, poor attitude & behaviour.

If I'm way off the mark with the above, apologies, but I'm getting a sense that there is a lot tied up in how you feel about not 'being there' for your DSD, even if you have perfectly reasonable & justifiable reasons for saying, now, 'enough'. It's not like you are going as far as to say 'be gone, do not darken my door' as you still expect to see her in your home, looking to her dad for help. So I guess I don't understand why that option for your DSD is such a 'bad thing' if she still has that option & would take it.

I think we x-posted, but DH is more than capable of supporting her, and does so while at the same time ensuring DD and I are protected.
But that's just it isn't it? If I reject DSD, turn away and say "no more", then her Dads ability to support her is also limited.

If DH knows I have detached, but then DSD turns to him looking for a place to stay, what can he say? My detaching leaves him choosing between us. All the while I remain engaged, all be it repeatedly being hurt, he can do what he believes is right for her in the knowledge that I'll support him.
Saying to her, "no, you can't move in with us, change your address, live with us, because last time you did that you changed your mind again a week later" may be a consequence of her actions, but it leaves her homeless and that's a big expectation of any parent.

X-post.

So you worry about you disengaging having an impact on your DH's ability to offer the kind if help you think DSD will need? Why can't you have a discussion, now, about how he can help, how far he can go, what you can & cannot agree with & then let him proceed on that basis, anticipating that DSD will at some point will have another crisis?

Why does the amount/type of help your DH can/is willing to offer, become your responsibility & more important than your wellbeing, if that causes you such upset & misery? I can understand you feeling obliged to put up with that burden if DSD was still a child, but she's 17. She can be told there are limits to what can be done to help her, and it's ok to put some responsibility for that reality to her so she can then decide how to proceed.

I honestly can't see why you can't draw your line in the sand, for your sake, your DH's & your DSD's too. 17 is a perfectly reasonable age to start with drawing that line. IMO.

I wish I had your conviction, tension. It does come back to her age/level of maturity and the abuse she has experienced.
As the answers on this thread have shown, it's not a clear cut issue - even when a DC is in their 20s and beyond, some people believe they are entitled to support regardless of their behaviour.

I'm struggling to set my own boundaries on this one and it helps to read other pov

Wakey, maybe I'm more 'sure' about what you should & should not endure because of my experience growing up. I was probably very similar to your DSD in how I treated certain people close to me, but I learned the hard way what happened when you treated people poorly. I'm probably less tolerant to that behaviour because I wish someone had pointed out to me that I was behaving appallingly at 14/15/16 etc. & just because that was the treatment I received at the hands of my bullying father, that didn't = how you get what you want in life. Maybe I'm a bit too evangelical about the realisation that I was an utter nightmare but I really do think you should be honest with your DSD about how you feel, and how her behaviour has affected you, at the very least.

You mentioned how your DH would be restricted in helping your DSD if she became homeless, if you refuse to allow her to stay with you. At 17, maybe soon to be 18, there are other options to that being the only choice because she's no longer a child. Legally, at 18, her options widen considerably and help to continue to live independently would probably be the best option for your DSD if living with her dad creates such animosity from her DM. I'm not suggesting it'll be easy to sort that, but perhaps knowing that it could happen in the future, you & your DH should have the discussion about this now, plan for it, work out the fine details where possible & finances etc. so that you are prepared for that if it happens - you may well get a clearer idea as to where your line is when you look at the reality of helping an 18 yr old set up on her own, independent of her DM, and it may not be your feelings that would limit the extent of your input but your circumstances.

I hope you figure out what works for you Wakey - I'm under no illusion that it's an easy situation to grapple with. Good luck

This is difficult wakey primarily because your dsd goes through phases of engaging and disengaging. Her bad behaviour is diminished a little by the fact that she does appear, from what you've said, to love and trust you. The fact that she periodically engages suggests that is perhaps where her 'adult' self comes into it (making choices, being independent, not taking what her mum tells her at face value) whereas her younger self is the one that dare not question her mother's authority. As adults we all come to a realisation that parents are not perfect, they make mistakes, but we have choices not to repeat them. It takes quite a leap of faith to understand that you can love someone yet not agree with them. Although your dsd is quite clearly confused, unsettled and somewhat damaged, I would probably take it as a good sign that she does at least interact with you and periodically go against her mum. She may be on that final step into adulthood that will one day see her saying to her mum "I love you, but you have done a lot of things wrong that have damaged me". If it were me I might be telling her that her behaviour is unacceptable now that she is older, you understand her conflicts and where they come from, but that you have a responsibility to yourself just as she has a responsibility to herself and you are taking control by saying "no more". I would also be ensuring that when you are distancing yourself your dh takes responsibility for his daughter, whatever that requires.

The difference with my situation is that dsd disengaged completely and has never looked back - not even a glimmer. She has systematically failed to even begin to take some initiative and responsibility for the situation and probably couldn't care less if dh were to die tomorrow. That I can neither comprehend nor forgive as I think 17 is more than old enough to understand the importance of life and the impact of your actions (and inaction) on others. She's an intelligent young lady who excels in every other way academically. She knows exactly what she's done: she feels no remorse because dh is not important enough to her and therefore serves no purpose in her life.

lion when did you come to the conclusion that your DSD disengagement was "for good"? DSD disappeared for over 2 years between the age of 13 and 15 and we'd kind of accepted it - then she turned up again, ping-ponged in and out of our lives for a while, only to disappear again a year later - that was 10 months ago.

I'm wary of accepting it's for good this time despite her having been missing for a while as it seemed harder to deal with if she does come back.
Her involvement in our lives also accelerated DSS alienation - all the while DSD wasn't seeing us, he didn't witness any conflict between DSD and their Mum but once she was back in touch with us, he heard/saw heated, violent arguments between them in which DH was the subject of disagreement. Quite understandably, DSS began to attribute those experiences to DH being in DSD life, and of course he was also subject to the constant barrage of negativity about DH that their Mum was giving DSD in an attempt to stop her coming here.

wakey - have you had this sort of discussion with your DH, or would he find it too painful/jump to incorrect conclusions? I'm just thinking that it would be important for you both to have a plan for whenever (if) your DSD decides to rock up again, so that you don't just react to whatever situation she presents with.

I do think you have to put some boundaries in place, same as you would if it were your own DD behaving in this way - but that would need to be done in conjunction with your DH anyway - she does need to discover that she can't just swan in and out of people's lives without some consequences!

wakey I suppose it's been accumulative. Dh has sometimes bumped into her when collecting dsd2. He spoke to say hello, she put her head down, walked pass with absolutely no reaction on her face. She has never accepted a phone call from him, never returned a text, not acknowledged a single birthday, Christmas or father's day. Shortly after it happened she opened up to me, appeared to listen, appeared to understand that sometimes people fall out but still love each other etc ect. She went downstairs having given the impression that things could be fixed. Instead she left the house and we haven't spoken since. Dh even ran after her in his socks in the rain to tell her he loves her and try to make things right. Not a glance backward. A few days later she called to say she never wanted to see him again as her mum had told her dh had called her a 'failure of a mother'. What he had actually said was that he believed she was failing in her duty as a mum to ensure her daughter had a healthy relationship and contact with her real dad. So you see, every single conversation that had ever been had between dh and the ex had been distorted and repeated to a 14yo. We are fighting against that background in addition to a now 17yo who is a complete clone of her mum - looks, mannerisms, personality, behaviour and the same entitled, distorted and unforgiving view of the world. We even visited her form tutor to see of there was anything he could do to help. He reported that she was happy, doing exceptionally well at school and gave him no cause for concern so he had no reason to intervene. That was our last throw of the dice given that she refuses to even speak to, let alone meet up with dh. We went through a period akin to bereavement before realising we could not continue like that. It was easier to 'decide' that she was gone for good and instead focus on what we have got. I have a marvellous family, which includes my delightful dsd2 who we all love very much. We hang onto that and thank our lucky stars that she is an entirely different person to her sister, more than capable of happy, healthy and meaningful relationships. She's an emotionally very mature 14yo.

My dp recently said to me that he still has "warm feelings " towards his dss who we haven't see or had any contact with for 2.5 years.

Whilst I am sure that is normal and healthy. I feel nothing of the sort. I feel that him and his mother between them are accountable. He's now 15 and perfectly old enough to know how he must be hurting his father and all his family who he has also disowned. Whilst I don't necessarily think he will understand the complexities of any emotions he feels or the long term damage he is doing to his confidence in shutting out a whole family, I do think he understands the basics, that his behaviour is hurtful and selfish and that he understands he is being "rewarded" for hating his "other" family by his mother.

I hold her to account more than him because she is an adult and has a more experienced view of the situation.

thumb yes, DH and I do talk about it, but it is hard to agree boundaries to hypothetical situations when we've no idea what to expect next - her arrest came out of the blue just as we thought she was settling at College; who knows what she'll do next!

I do have some non-negotiables; I will not agree to my DD having any contact with the DSC if they do ever decide to visit (she's only here 50:50, so quite possible to arrange DSC contact when she's not here) and if either DSC made their home with us, family therapy for us all is a must.

I mostly wanted to comment here I guess from the POV of your DSD.

My mother was extremely emotionally abusive for many years. At 17, I was still living at home and absolutely flipping terrified of her. After my dad moved out when my parents split, I didn't talk to him for almost 2 years - simply because I knew my mother would make my life a living hell for "betraying" her and "turning my back on my real family" etc etc.

I know in a lot of ways, 17 year olds are seen as basically adults. Get a job, go to uni, etc. But I think emotionally they are no where near fully matured. And if you've been basically emotionally stunted by an awful parent, you're not really in a great place.

I guess I'm taking it from a different POV, but I don't really see her behaviour as purposefully hurtful. She sounds like she's trying to pander to her mother as much as she can so that life is as smooth as possible. I'm definitely not trying to say that it therefore isn't hurtful or hard. I imagine it would be hard on your DP and doubly hard on you, given that you and DSD aren't really close.

I read the smaller things like complimenting your hairstyle or liking posts on FB as ways for her to show that she was still connected, or small ways to keep open lines of communication. Maybe that's all she can do for now?
Even if her mother isn't specifically restricting her actions, the guilt and years of emotional abuse would be all the mother needed to "keep her in line."

When I finally got in contact with my dad again, he told me he'd assumed that I just didn't want to see him. He was absolutely mortified when I told him just a small portion of the bullshit my mother pulled. He said he couldn't believe that he'd left me there in that house. But how was he to know?

Probably when she's older, she'll regret the way she's acted and she will realise how hard it was for you all to have to deal with this. Maybe she is already aware of this - maybe for her it's a case of weighing this up against the abuse she'll cop from her mother for staying too long or getting too friendly with you and DH.

Sorry, I have slightly more to add.

You say that you're aware that the mother is trying to stop DSD from seeing you all. And that she's abusive. But it sounds like you still wanted to lump DSD into the standard "acting out teenager" category. As if punishing her and telling her she's not welcome to live with you is going to make her life any easier.

In all honesty, this post has almost brought me to tears. I really feel sorry for DSD. It wasn't that many years ago that I finally got away from my mother for good, and I still remember how awful it felt living in fear.

The thought of you and DH possibly telling her that she isn't welcome to come live with you actually hurts. Taking away one more option for her. At 17, I would have killed to have someone tell me that I had a safe place to go if I needed it, and tell me that I didn't have to put up with the kind of treatment, and that it wasn't normal or ok.

It sounds as if everyone is aware of how badly DSD is being treated by her mother, and that she is making an effort to still see DH. I honestly don't doubt that she already feels incredibly guilty for the things she has done, or for not seeing her father, or for the difficulties she's caused. Unfortunately, that guilt is overridden by fear and basically conditioning.

That being said, I don't have any idea how difficult the whole situation has been on you and DH. I'm not at all trying to minimise that. I haven't been in that position. I have only been in something similar to DSDs position. And really, I have no practical advice on how far your support should go, but I just saw so many comments just saying 'she's 17, she's old enough.' I really just wanted to urge you and your DH to consider that she's not doing this to be a pain in the arse - maybe she's trying to best she can with what she's got, same as everyone else. And if popping up on FB is what she can do for now, then that's what she can do.

I also think your OP tells a very different story to what's been shared in the comments - you say her fear of what may happen is too great to risk upsetting her mum. Yet you've written that her mum screams at her, hits her, threatens to trash all her stuff, pull her out of college, and that social services have been involved. That's a little more than DSD doesn't want to cause her mother dear a headache. I find it incredibly saddening that a 17 year old who is being abused might be cut off from a source of help or aid.

RandF. Thank you for sharing your experiences, I appreciate it must have been very painful for you to relive that, and to spend time reading the comments on this thread.

I admit, it has been my belief that DSD has been experiencing what you describe that has motivated me not to cut her off until now. I have read a great deal about the experiences of abused children, and first hand accounts such as your own, and I do believe that DSD is a victim in a similar way.

When I referred to DSD fear of what may happen I wasn't thinking of the immediate repercussions of her mums physical reaction, terrifying though they must be.
When talking through the options open to DSD in the past, she has often said "I can't do that to her" (referring to her Mum). DSD is convinced, I believe, that she will/can irreparably damage her mum in some way - and that her mums emotional/violent responses to DSD choices that she disapproves of are indicative of her mum fighting for survival. I know that this is indeed the case for individuals who suffer from certain personality disorders; and while I would never armchair diagnose, it has helped a great deal to understand life from the DSC point of view by reading about life with a parent with a personality disorder.

The problem I have is reconciling that with the chaos and drama that accompanies DSDs presence in our lives. She has been no-contact for 10 months this time. If she turns up tomorrow, next week or next month saying her mum has thrown her out because she's got an STD (for instance), it would be natural for us to want to help her, offer her somewhere to stay, support her to seek treatment and get her back on her feet. But, at the back of my mind will be the thought that once she's been patched up, and put back together again, she'll go back to her Mum, turn her back on us, hurt DH again by making public proclamations of gratitude to her Mum on Father's Day (while at the same time failing to acknowledge him). I just don't know if I'm emotionally resilient enough to keep experiencing that. If I knew it was for a finite length of time, then maybe I could cope - but this could be forever.