When can a "child" be held accountable for their own choices?

[WakeyCakey45]

Like many stepmums, I've repeatedly been hurt and rejected by my DSC. I understand all the reasons why; the conflict they feel, the fear they have of upsetting their mum, the punitive consequences they are subject to if they challenge her, and the bewilderment of coming to terms with their mums determination to exclude DH (and I) from their lives.

But, do those reasons justify their choices and behaviour for life? Or does there come a point when an adult child, particularly one who acknowledges they treat certain people badly, can no longer be excused?

My DSD is approaching adulthood and independence. She is aware that her behaviour has hurt DH, myself and my DD. Yet, it continues. Her fear of what may happen is too great to risk upsetting her mum.

DSD behaviour is understandable, but is it something I should accept and tolerate? Should I continue to accept her poor behaviour towards me because of the hostility of her mum? For how long?

And if so, should I not be equally tolerant and accepting of her mums behaviour? Because her mum was a child victim, too. Should emotional abuse in childhood be accepted as a reason for treating others badly in adult life? Should I put my own feelings, and those of my DD to one side, in order to accomodate the emotional limitations of my DSD, and her mum, because those limitations are the result of abuse?

But I suppose you have answered my question - no matter how old DSD is, all the while her mum is using her, then I should accept however she chooses to treat me.

I disagree that you just accept poor treatment from a 17 yr old, no matter what the reasons are, or the background/history. Why would you simply stay quiet under these circumstances? I think having a line drawn over what you can/will accept and what you won't is perfectly reasonable & acceptable, especially dealing with a 17 yr old. It may well take some time/years before the message sinks in & your DSD realises that the bullying/manipulation/histrionics that have shaped her views/thoughts/behaviours towards you and her DF are not acceptable, but I think that message still needs to be put across for her sake if not yours.

At some point your DSD will be pulled up on the learned (poor) treatment she will dish out elsewhere, and if no one has actually said to her 'that's not right' at any stage, it'll be harder again for her to cope/react to that. Not your fault/responsibility but I just can't see how it's does any of you any good to keep pretending that this behaviour has no effect on you/your feelings don't matter, and that your DSD should be shielded from experiencing the reaction anyone else would have if they were treated by her the way you have been. Friendships, relationships, professional acquaintances - all these connections will be made through her adulthood, and few, if any, will put up with the 'pick up/dump/ignore' nature of those interactions.

Friendships, relationships, professional acquaintances - all these connections will be made through her adulthood, and few, if any, will put up with the 'pick up/dump/ignore' nature of those interactions.

No, they won't, and that is a lesson DSD is already learning through observation of her mum, who has alienated friends, colleagues and family members by taking them for granted and treating them as optional extras who she expects to be there when she needs them.
Sadly, her mum is one of life's victims, and hasn't been able to self-reflect and realise the part her own behaviour plays in the dynamic. DSD realises her mum is her own worst enemy, but isn't willing to challenge it (yet). dSS on the other hand, still unquestionably beleives that is mum is always right and it's always other people who are wrong (including his teachers, judges, social workers, and of course, his dad). A recent conversation between DSS and DH revealed that DSS is convinced that his Headteacher hates his mum because his school report didn't say what his mum wanted it to.
But, in DSS case, he's 11, and totally dependent on his mum physically and emotionally. He has no independence (in fact, teaching him independence was one of the things DH did wrong, according to DSS) so, it's more or less self preservation for him to go along with whatever his mum says.
With DSD it's different. She's aware of the impact of her choices and behaviour, and to be honest, some of her choices seem malicious in motive, rather than just to appease her mum. Which may be why I'm finding it increasingly hard to accept that she needs tolerance and understanding. I just feel like leaving her in the lurch - cutting off all methods of contact and leaving her to flounder the next time things go wrong for her.

Wakey if her mum is that bad I don't think there is very much you or their dad can do at all, to me what she is doing counts as a form of abuse which the kids are suffering from and need removed from her care...

I think if you are reading your DSD and her actions now as having some malicious intent rather than simply learned behaviour with little/no realisation of the effect/impact, then you need to discuss how you feel with your DH & set out the line you feel you need to draw for your sake, your DD's and DSD too. If you choose to follow through with what you feel you want to do, then as long as you are certain, and clear why, then you need to do that. 17 is old enough to have some realisation that your behaviour & actions impact others, even if you lack the maturity or motivation to change at that stage. The message still needs to be put across even if it doesn't sink in.

I grew up with a bullying, manipulative, twisted parent, and my learned behaviour from him affected many parts of my life - friendships, relationships, career etc. Not too dissimilar to what I anticipate your DSD is likely to encounter. The penny dropped for me eventually, but not before I'd lost good friends & missed out on what could have been good (for me) relationships. Your DSD will experience this, I have no doubt, but I can say with hindsight that if someone close to me had pulled me up for my behaviour sooner, I know the penny would have dropped sooner too. I was never made to face up to my own behaviour, and blamed others for some of the poor outcomes I had to deal with. Ironically when I did face up to my own behaviour & choices, and accepted responsibility for those choices, I also was able to stand up for myself against the bullying bastard my dad was. And that was a major breakthrough for me.

Wakey, I think you need to do what makes sense & what you think is right for you. You won't be doing your DSD a disservice by refusing to accept poor behaviour. IMO anyway.

DSD1 was like this until she moved out of her mum's house and had to be responsible for her own actions. She's now 22 and has periods of being insanely jealousy of DSD2 for going to uni, learning to drive etc. DH has always taken the approach that if you want to act like an adult you'll be treated like one, so every time she complains about how hard she has it he points out that it was her choice to have DC at 16, her choice to turn down driving lessons for her birthday in favour of going out etc.

She still does the thing of being close to her mum until they fall out and then she'll spend weeks at a time popping in for tea or going to the cinema with DH (all tagged on FB for mum to see ) before dropping us when they make up. DH has made it clear to both DSDs that our door is always open to them but we won't be putting our lives on hold for them either. I think it was a shock to her when she realised that DH was serious about treating her like an adult but as he pointed out to her, she wouldn't get away with certain behaviour with her friends so he was certainly not going to put up with it.

I have disengaged to a certain extent. I'll listen to her moan about her mum etc but I won't get involved in whatever games they are playing with each other. Luckily DH is behind me on this so it's a lot easier because I used to feel like I was abandoning her when she needed us. I've been in their lives for a long time and I wouldn't like to think that they felt like we didn't want them, but as DH reminded me, they are big girls who need to learn how to make their own mistakes. Wejjust have to be there for them.

At 17, DSS was horrendous, after lies, running away, etc, he cut contact with his Dad for two years. It was very painful for DH, but looking back, inevitable given DSS's upbringing. Like in your situation, OP, this really was the ex from hell who did anything to obstruct DH from parenting.

DSS is now in his 20's. I would say he is ...damaged. He still can be a liar, unreliable, yet a people pleaser, (he had to be when he was growing up). He went to 7 different primary schools and is very poorly educated. He and his Dad have a warm relationship now though, DSS really has a kind heart, and we try to help with encouragement, money and general support etc.

To your question, no, I don't really hold DSS accountable for his choices. I feel terribly sorry for him. He never hurt or rejected me, because I had no expectations from him. Like the PP, I think disengagement is important. He has his parents. I'm not his parent, thank goodness. I wouldn't tolerate him being rude or unkind to me or his siblings though, and I hope your DH protects you all from that.

Going forward, if I were you, I'd try and leave it all to DH, don't cut contact with her, but be cool and consistent. She might change, but she might not.

Thing is maybe, they were your parents. The relationship they had with you was built on experiences from birth - positive as well as negative memories. Coupled with that the biological programming most parents have to protect/raise their DCs.

I don't have that with DSD. Every positive interaction is tainted - I've never had the opportunity to develop a stable relationship with her.

We did grow close last year when she and I worked together for the summer; but my memories of that period are ruined by the experience of the subsequent scenes that took place over the money she earned - which she intended to use for the first year at college, but which her mum took for board and lodging at the time.
Every memory has a negative - planning a NYE party, only for the DSC to walk out hours before because their Mum had got the night off work, and wanted them home cos she was on her own. Signing up for a charity run together - only for her to walk into the house without a word to me 24 hours later, pack a suitcase and leave, with no explaination.
It's no surprise that I'm reluctant to let her back into my life to continue to behave like this; but equally, she is a victim, and I acknowledge she needs tolerance and understanding. I'm just not sure I'm capable of giving it anymore.

Some of the things she's done while no contact seem to be deliberately designed to hurt - comments on social media sites, or texts she's sent me for instance. I haven't told DH about all of them.

barbarian I don't have any expectations of regular contact - on the contrary, I'd be quite happy if there was never any contact again!

My expectation is that I will be called upon, by DSD, to be there for her in the future when she has another life crisis or drama. I appreciate that is a consequence of my previous willingness to support and help her.

My question is whether it is acceptable to cut her off (by blocking her, changing my number etc) because of her behaviour, or whether I should remain available to her in spite of it. Can she be held accountable for some of her own behaviours, or are all of them a consequence of the emotional control/abuse her mum has?

Wakey - if you look at some of the stuff that posters write about their manipulative, abusive, NPD mothers in other sections, you'll see that they're still, in their 30s and 40s, being manipulated and unable to break the patterns for fear of upsetting their mothers (or fathers, it's not confined to the female parent, but does seem to be more frequently them).
I think this kind of abuse emotionally stunts the abused child - leaves them forever in the "must please mum" phase - and I believe that because of this your DSD probably isn't being malicious as such, but is lashing out as a toddler/small child would. She's being hurt by her mother, but she can't hurt her mother back because that wouldn't work so she's lashing out at the next best thing - and in this case that's you. :(

It's not fair, it's not right - and it's up to you how much of it you choose to put up with - but I really don't think that she is entirely accountable for all of her bad behaviours because she doesn't know what else to do. If you choose to cut her off, then she'll never have another influence in her life attempting to show her the way mature adults respond - she'll only continue doing what she knows, which is copied from her very obviously abusive mother.

Of course some of her behaviour will just be because she's a teenager too, and these have to be checked - but some of the things you've described do clearly stem from her mother, and I don't think she actually has the ability to choose differently - she'd probably need counselling by now to completely break the patterns her mother has instilled.

Counselling isn't going to happen - she signed up once, but again, it offended her mum ("no child of mine needs therapy") so she cancelled before attending.

It's interesting maybe that you describe me as immediate family To her - how would you define that? What aspects of our relationship distinguish it as family?

Umm aren't you her dad's partner, her sister's mum and her step mum? That counts as family round here.

if her mum was beating her would you still feel the same way? Because emotional abuse is just as bad (actually it is worse because I guess if she was being physically attacked someone would have been able to stop it - I understand why that's not possible in this case).

barbarian if by round here, you mean MUmsnet, then my experience is exactly the opposite - stepmums are very rarely considered family here on MN, even when they are resident with their stepchild, which is obviously not the case here.
The DSC do not consider themselves a part of our family; and certainly, my DD (who is not DHs) does not view them as siblings - their presence in her life is more akin to distantly living cousins, despite their close proximity.
I've never had the opportunity to develop any form of relationship with them, certainly not a family bond - I'm not sure I could refer to myself as immediate family when they themselves don't view their own dad as such.

DSC mum does physically, as well as emotionally, abuse them and Soc Serv have been involved. Due to their age, and the sporadic nature of the assaults, they are not considered at risk - the social worker told DH that both are old enough to walk out of their mums home if they wanted to.

I am sorry, it sounds very difficult.

By round here I meant South Yorkshire (don't want to be specific about which bit). Lots of very mixed up/ complicated family arrangements amongst my family and friends. My family is more dislocated than most (last week my kids played with the children of my half sister's half brother's wife from her first marriage - their cousins) but they are still family.

Wakey, what is it that stops you from saying 'enough' to being taken for granted/used/expected to 'be there' when things go wrong for your DSD? I assume your DH is the one your DSD is actually turning to, so are you involved be cause he asks or expects you to step up, or does your DSD look to you expectantly when she's got some difficulty she needs help with? Is it in your nature to 'be there' or is it something you struggle with but do it out of some sense of duty because your DH expects you to?

I guess I'm unclear on why, if this has been ongoing for a long time, with no indication of any change from your DH's ex and no sign your DSD is willing or able to see how you feel being caught up in this yet treated poorly by her afterwards, what is it in this situation that compels you to feel you need to accept poor treatment? Why not simply be clear about the line you draw, and then step back & leave your DH to handle things? Does he need your input? Does he need you getting involved to the extent you end up being hurt by your DSD's actions?

17 may well still be too young to expect your DSD to be able to change her actions/reactions when dealing with her abusive DM, but she's not to young to have it pointed out that how she's treating you is hurtful & you don't want to have to deal with her issues. She still has her dad to turn to. You taking a stand on what you are willing to put up with isn't going to leave her dangling, unsupported with no where to turn. Unless I'm missing something?

tension She seeks me out directly.

There was a period of several months during which I had more contact with her then DH did - because she was working part time for/with me, so we saw each other for several hours, several days a week, whereas DH would see her one or two evenings a week in that time.

She clearly does view me as an independent rescuer and I wouldn't be surprised if she turned up on the doorstep at work one day rather than seek out DH. I'm not sure how big a part my involvement with her Dad plays in that - initially, I was Dads Girlfriend, and Dads Partner, but eventually I became wakey, someone she relates to independently of him.

In hindsight, employing her was a mistake - but it was discussed as a family at the time, and boundaries were drawn. Those boundaries were never crossed at work, she was treated and behaved in exactly the same way as other young employees - but it did allow us to "get to know" each other as individuals, rather than in the family context.

The problem now is that her expectation of me is because of my relationship with her dad, and my reluctance to cut her off is for the same reason!

Ok I understand a bit more. However, I still think you don't really owe her that role of rescuer, not with a 17 yr old who has other options. I guess it's hard to turn your back or draw a line if you've had a connection that came from her working for you, with the added connection with your DH. But you'd hardly put up with this from another employee you worked with & grew close to. You describe that time/developed connection as being independent of your DH, so in effect the connection (to me) just seems more like your 'fond' of someone you gave a chance to, who you knew had it tough elsewhere. Maybe I'm doing you a disservice, or reading this wrong.

I don't get the sense your DH is pressuring you to 'be nice' or do whatever he thinks it would take to maintain his relationship at your expense. So I can only think that deep down, despite your efforts to back off or distance yourself, you still have some slim hope that in being that rescuer for your DSD, you'll be able to help her make the (very long awaited) transition from being heavily influenced/affected by her DM's influence to independent young woman able to think & act for herself.

I just think, from the background you've mentioned & long history with your DH's ex looming large, I don't think that turn around will happen. It certainly won't happen because you accept being treated poorly by your DSD. And given the time I expect it'll take her to make any progress towards that turn around (if she ever does) it just spells a lot of misery & rejection for you for quite a while to come.

Honestly, I think you would be perfectly reasonable to say 'no more' and leave your DH to deal with things should she need more help in the near future. And it would do your DSD no harm (IMO) to hear that her behaviour/actions towards you won't be tolerated as you are worth more consideration than she's demonstrated thus far.

But you'd hardly put up with this from another employee you worked with & grew close to.

You're right, I'd be quite comfortable turning away any other former employee, or other young person (the daughter of a friend, for instance) if they had behaved towards me the way DSD has. "I'm sorry X, this is nothing to do with me, you'll need to sort it out with your parents". I'd have blocked their number, and unfriendly them on FB months ago.

But of course, if I do that with DSD, it's likely she'll be sat in our living room with DH when I get home, with DH not only dealing with whatever crisis led DSD to reinitiate contact in the first place, but also with her feelings of rejection because I wasnt there for her.

Wakey - do you think she is taking advantage of you? Or that she is turning to you because she has no one else that she feels would be any help to her?

I don't think she does have anyone else at the point she asks for help (she has lots of peer and social media friends, but the only adults she has in her life all defer to her Mum, unless she's confided in a college tutor, which I doubt). She and DSS have both said they are reluctant to tell people anything about their lives because it will get their mum into trouble. CAFCASS even wrote that in DSS latest wishes and feelings report!

Thats my dilemma - do I have an obligation to be there for her, despite her behaviour, because of her age and life experiences, or is it socially, morally and ethically acceptable to put myself and my family ahead of her needs and to cut her off, even if that results in significant life consequences for her? I know that DH wouldn't blame me, but am I confident that it is the right thing to do? It seems opinions are divided on this thread, too!

If I'd turned her away when she turned up drunk, or under arrest, told her it wasn't my problem, that she was a big girl, and needed to sort things out for herself, what would that have led to?

I agree with Tension. This is a child with two parents - I can see that her mum is failing her massively - but this does not mean you stepping in will be helpful, in fact it appears to make it worse.

I would keep replies to her brief and cool. Just 'thanks' or 'sorry to hear that' kind of thing. If she eventually asks what's up, just say something like, Im always here for you but I won't be disrespected or let down again.

I hope for you and your DH that she does grow up and disentangle herself.