DSD16 is back, house rules broken already

[BuzzLightbulb]

So DSDS16 back after a week at her dad's supposedly living under the 'new rules' agreed between DP and ex.

Short post is this....

If you set rules and they're broken do you

a) apply the consequences
b) shrug your shoulders and hope she won't do it again

?

Answers on a postcard to the usual address

If it were me I'd be thinking of moving out. I couldn't live like this. You have no way to ensure rules are enforced. You can either leave or lump it.

I say this knowing you have struggled for a long while.

It's not your fault.

Your partner applies the consequence

You go to the pub

Repeat.

I guess the answer to your question is "depends whether or not you're a Disney parent". Which doesn't help I know. It must be gutting to live in a household where your partner tells you that x, y & z rules are going to apply and then when they're flouted, nothing is done. Like, what's the point of having "rules" if it doesn't matter when they're broken. Sounds like lip service to me rather than a genuine desire to try and establish some order and respect.

How does your partner justify "shrugging" about it ?

I agree with laurie

You've had such a hard time of it with your situation.

Pub it is, eh?

I'll take the healthy alternative and strap on the walking boots instead. though they may take me to the pub eventually!

After DSD had gone last time, DP asked me how healthy I thought our relationship was.

I wanted to say 'we don't have one while your daughter's here', but I ducked it and came up with something deep instead.

I'm going to have to tell DP aren't I?

I've already had the conversation about there being no automatic forgiveness because there's no blood tie with DSD for me. So while DP may be able to forgive and forget, as part of trying to treat DSD as the adult she claims to be I still need the apology and the display of recognition from DSD that she understands why what she says and does is not acceptable.

She never apologises, she just comes up with excuses and blames other people for her behaviour like a scolded child. Which says it all really.

She is a child though. She's only 16, she hasn't had consistent parenting by the sounds of it and brain development, particularly in terms of social behaviour , social awareness, empathy and personality traits, isn't complete until almost 30!

Yes, you need to be straight with your DP. It sounds like you're letting your DP get away with things (or not communicating clearly) as much as she lets DSD get away with things so really you're both just doing the same thing. If both of you took responsibility rather than putting your heads in the sand and passing the buck, there's a chance this could be resolved.

while DP may be able to forgive and forget, as part of trying to treat DSD as the adult she claims to be I still need the apology and the display of recognition from DSD that she understands why what she says and does is not acceptable.

What does your DSD need? My stepfather reacted like this. I ended up moving out for good and my relationship with my mum has never really been the same and it kills her. She is trying to tell you something with her behaviour. Becoming a stepfamily is hard. You have a choice, she doesn't.

No kid has a choice about their parents, though, step- or otherwise. I certainly had lots of moments of wishing I'd been born into a different family, or that my mum wasn't my mum (and my parents were great and I loved them - but I was a teenager). I'm tired of the "the kid doesn't have a choice" line - what kid does, and why do we pretend that this makes them any different from any other teenager who has to follow the rules of the home in which he/she lives? When it comes to house rules, this just doesn't matter - kid or stepkid, these are the rules, these are the consequences, and that's how it is.

I agree you need to be more forthright with your DP. If she's not willing to stick to a plan, this will never change.

With any kid, when there is bad behaviour, IMHO there needs to be a two-prong approach. One that is child-centred - what is going on with them, what does the behaviour reflect (if anything - is it acting out, or is it just 'standard' boundary testing, or is it to do with peer concerns, etc) - and this is about talking to the kid, helping them if they need help. The other piece is about addressing the behaviour itself - and that's about consequences, whether natural ones or imposed ones. You're in trouble if you have a DP who is fine with the first but not the second, or vice versa.

Because a normal parent doesn't feel like an intruder. A normal parent doesn't feel like a threat of loss of attention. You can ignore the difficulties of blending families and the emotions they bring up but they will persist.

That's not to say it's an excuse for bad behaviour from adult or child, but it does explain some things and with explanations and understanding we are more likely to reach a resolution.

I wanted to say 'we don't have one while your daughter's here', but I ducked it and came up with something deep instead.

For the love of god, let your partner know how much strain this is putting on your relationship. It is the very least you and she deserve. Don't martyr yourself, fgs.

I'm not suggesting that anyone 'ignore the difficulties of blending families'. (Hardly!) But let's be honest, one of the difficulties is this attitude that every unacceptable act by a stepchild is the consequence of being in a stepfamily.

That assumption prevades these boards, and it is why buzz or I can be 100% assured of a completely different response when we post about a stroppy teenager, than the 'normal' parent gets. Over the years that I have been on MN, I have seen hundreds of examples of this. Hundreds.

Often times the explanation for the behaviour of a stepchild is exactly the same as the explanation for the behaviour of a non-stepchild.

We can ignore THAT reality and pretend that the way to deal with a teenager who is out of control is always to take a softly, softly approach - no matter if there is considerable evidence in the situation of that approach not working. Buzz was talking about his need for respect and an apology, and the reply "what does your DSD need?" along with the caution of "careful not to push her or she might move out!" just underlines the degree to which stepparents (and repartnered parents themselves) are expected to 'put up and shut up' with things that a 'normal parent' (your phrase not mine) would deal with.

Apparently she 'needs' to be left alone to do what she wants which means

'needing' to stay out as late as she likes
'needing' for her mum not to worry about where she is
'needing' to have sex with her b/f wherever and whenver she wants because she's a grown up
'needing' to miss meals but be able to feed herself an b/f whatevfer and whenever they want but not 'needing' to have to clear up
'needing' to be given money to facilitate her essential lifestyle
'needing' for us to gtf out of her life apart from cooking cleaning for her and doing her laundry

and not needing to

give a rat's ar5e what she says to anyone or how she says it
give a rat's ar5e about anything really

I know that can be any/many a 16 yr old.

I still have this nagging concern that this all kicked off when new b/f arrived on scene. It does seem typical in her social circle that the girl in the relationship is subserviant to the boy in an alarmingly chauvinistic way . She is at his beck and call 24 hrs a day, he seems to need to be in control of everything she does, and she's not spending time with her friends any more.

She's in love of course. Pass me the bucket....

Then I apologise for not being clear and say again, I do excuse any behaviour just because there is a reason for it. Unacceptable is unacceptable, AND there are often reasons we don't look at or can't see (like the fact that Buzz constantly berates his DP but makes the same mistakes as she does).

The comment about my situation was came from my response to his post that read as if he was saying "She isn't my daughter so I have the right to demand a full and sincere apology, regardless of anything else", which is no way to be in any family, IMO but I suspect you and Buzz have a similar style and my is slightly different.

Do not excuse*

But nomore, do you not expect your children to apologise when they've done something that harms or selfishly inconveniences someone else? I'm not being funny with you, I really do want to know if this is the difference here. I expect all our kids to apologise when they've done wrong. Sometimes they aren't (because of age, with my 4 year-old) able to make a sincere apology (as when she doesn't have the developed logic to understand the consequences fully, or the fully developed empathy to see the impact on another person, and that's age-appropriate). Sometimes they are too full of teenage pride and arrogance to make a sincere apology (as with my DSS, who often paints himself into a corner with his actions and sees apologising as 'climbing down' even when he knows rightly what he's done, and that is also probably a factor of his age). But I expect them to make the apology anyway, and see it is a way of reinforcing to them that what they've done is unacceptable and that they need to make amends.

Example. My DSS has assaulted me, during a conflict over house rules, and I want an apology for it. A satisfactory one hasn't happened yet, and until it does, there is a refusal on my part to extend myself for him in certain ways. I've read threads on other boards where posters are advised to kick their children out of the home for less. But I'm apparently supposed to let him off the hook because he's in a blended family. I'm not in agreement with that. Expecting an apology when you've been wronged doesn't seem to be to be an unreasonable ask.

Nomore...

If your daughter called you a fing cnt, would you ask her for an apology?

Does being a step parent make you a second class citizen compared to a biological parent???

That seems to be one school of thought. The 'suck it up, you're not her parent' theme.

If the boot was on the other foot I'd be saying to her 'You can talk to me like that and get away with it because I'm your dad, but you are not to talk to DP, or any other adult like that, ever.'

But then I am my father's son......

See, buzz, I think this may be a difference of parenting style as much as a "stepparenting" thing. I know there are parents who think that 'requiring' a kid to apologise is pointless, because it won't be sincere. I don't happen to agree with them; I think the sincerity is a plus, and the best apology will of course be a sincere one, but that the act of apologising is also about sending the message that what's happened is socially unacceptable. It's why some of us, at least, make toddlers apologise - because it is social training, and it is personal training - and a bit like learning to use a muscle - it has to be learned and practised.

So if your DP is in the camp of "I don't expect or require my children to apologise", then it is a parenting difference just like any other - requiring a kid to do chores, or whether table manners are important or just outdated etiquette, or having rules about what sort of language is acceptable in the home. And then you need to talk that out and decide together how to handle it, because it might be that your background/expectations are just completely different. In which case I think then it comes down finally to your boundaries. You are a human being who is entitled to say "I won't be spoken to like that and I expect an apology", and decide how you will respond to someone who doesn't respect that. Your DP is free to set her own boundaries about how she'll be treated by others, and so are you. She may say "I'm not going to require DD to apologise, because I don't believe in that", and then you're saying "Well, I have a right to a level of respect from others" and the choice you get to make is whether to stay or go, or stay and detach from it. It's that old cliche about not being able to control other people's behaviour, only your own response. What you ought to have equal say in though, is a house rule that says something like "adults will be spoken to respectfully" or "foul language will result in grounding" - but probably you won't get far with any rules that go beyond behaviour - we can't say "you will feel bad when you are a dick, or be grounded"! and probably won't get far with a rule that says "everyone has to apologise when they've hurt someone else". So the rules have to be practically based - about external actions, not internal processes like forgiveness or remorse.

I'm blathering.

So the very next thread I read after I typed all that was this one!
www.mumsnet.com/Talk/_chat/2116417-at-stalemate-with-ds-what-do-I-do-now

All about a son who refuses to apologise. Difference of views, but generally, no quarrel with the idea that an apology is in order.

I can accept that some adults have a different approach, that's not an issue.

I feel an apology is deserved, but as I've suggested a recognition that she was out of line and it shouldn't happen again would be enough.

She is very like that 11 yr old, complete denial she's done wrong until she's backed herself into a corner she can't get out of and then...BOOM!!!

All hell breaks loose. Completely irrational.

Anyway we've moved on. Tonight I will ask DP if she thinks DSD has crossed the line on the rules and if yes, what she is going to do about it.

If something is done, it's not up to me to argue whether that is going to be effective, just to recognise it's been done and move on.

If something isn't done there's a conversation to be had with DP, I'm going to try and drag her out for a walk anyway because even in these most strained of times there is still an 'us' in there somewhere trying to get out.

My DSS is much the same, Buzz. DP and I have to laugh sometimes about the convoluted arguments he comes up with just to avoid taking responsibility when he's screwed up. I say 'have to laugh', because otherwise we're in tears over it!

Oh no, I absolutely agree that an apology is required. One of my DC is autistic and getting him to understand about apologies is like pulling teeth but rules are rules and if you break them you apologise. In that respect, step or bio status is absolutely irrelevant.

Buzz's post seemed to suggest that because he was a step parent that gave a right to demand an apology, without discussion, just "because". Perhaps I was reading an overbearing tone where there wasn't one.

That said, Buzz, your reply about what she needs indicates to me that you don't understand her position really and I think I've said on another thread that if this boyfriend is pulling her off the rails then the worst thing the adults in her life can do is let him take control. Clearly some strong boundaries need to be laid down and need to be enforced by DP and you, and by dad if possible, and she needs to be involved in that process. If she helps to set the rules, she's less likely to break them.

Perhaps my parenting style is influenced by dealing with an ASD child. I know for my other DC, laying down the law would work but for my eldest, laying down the law doesn't work, I won't live by his rules (obviously!!) so we constantly work together on a way that works for both of us. ExH on the other hand insists on still persisting with the laying down the law and it's sad to see their relationship going down the pan.

Overbearing?? Moi ???

The boyfriend thing will have to run its course. I don't dislike him, he's just given me no reason to like him. How can you form an opinion on a lad who just doesn't have anything to say for himself?

As for negotiation, we do it all the time because her demands and our starting position are always poles apart and we want to show her that if she can discuss things in a reasonable manner then she's more likely to get what she wants. She's not treated like achild by any means.

But how do you respond to, for example, a negotiated home time of 11 and she walks through the door at 2.30 in the morning? Grounding doesn't work because she has to come home from school in the first place to be stuck there. And doesn't.

Apparently b/f's parents are 'really chilled', which translates to ??

As for dad enforcing the rules... the easy choice will always be the one he takes.

We had her full time for four months, then asked him to have her for a few weeks for a break and his reply was the best ever...

"No, because .....I have a social life."

I agree you deserve an apology but I think the bigger issue here is your dp and her ex's reluctance to actually parent their daughter. My stepkids are younger but as with everything brdgrl says if they behave inappropriately I expect an apology just in the same way that if I or their dad behave badly we apologise.

Ignore the likes of nomore and focus on the advice given by brdgrl as she is a wise owl amd always very helpful and sincere