Do DCs need contact with the NRP?

[FrogStarandRoses]

I'm coming to the conclusion that sometimes it's best for everyone, most of all the DCs concerned, that unless the RP is supportive, DCs are better off without contact with the NRP.

I know there is a risk of long-term psychological issues and I'm sure that it increases the chances of difficulties when they marry/become parents themselves, but I think it is unfair to subject them to the emotional conflict and turmoil of spending time with one parent when the other disapproves/objects.
If they choose to see the NRP when they are adults then great, but to be honest, if they've not had a relationship with that parent as a child, then they're not going to relate to them as a blood relative; it will be an adult relationship based on whether they get on as individuals.

Can anyone convince me otherwise? I'm very uncomfortable thinking this, but it seems the only logical conclusion based on my experience.

Frogs,yours is a very complex situation.i can see why your thinkin that way.in general yes it is beneficial to have contact whether theres animosity,but your dhs ex has gone beyond that.i cant think of anything else to suggest.its not a situation any of you should be in.x

I wrote a very long reply and have lost it.
My experience has told me that when the RP is manipulative and obstructive (as in your case...and mine) the children suffer and contact with NRP is frequently horribly stressful for all involved. Does this justify stopping contact... I don't know if it does or not. My childhood experience tells me that what really makes a difference is whether or not the child feels loved by the NRP. I think that there are ways if showing you love a child that don't involve EOW contact but it's very very hard and the children must be able to look back and see that the NRP never rejected them (or never stopped trying).

It wasn't good for me when my dad cut me off as a teenager. He went with whatever the whim of the latest step mum though so very different to your situation.

heidi the never stop trying creates more conflict though, doesn't it?

The case in the media a few weeks ago - 82 court hearings, over 12 years of a DCs life, and she's still not able to see her Dad.

natasha It varies - the work done by Warshak and others indicate that some DCs never re-establish contact, others reject the resident parent in adulthood, and there are some very sad cases where the DC has discovered it is too late to reinitiate contact; the parent they estranged has died before they choose to reinitiate contact.

As far as we know, DHs exW falls into the first category; she was prevented from having a relationship with her own father and has never re-established that relationship. The generational nature of the issue is also a factor.

Frog: That 82 case thing, I think I read about it - didn't he also take it to high court?

In answer to your question: I'm not sure. By having no contact because the RP isn't supportive is playing right in to her hands. What happens if in years to come the DC come to you calling you all sorts (as Mum has them believe) and asks why you didn't stick it out or try - despite it being high conflict.

The DC might not want a relationship but they may want answers to such questions so still may come knocking in later years.

feeling The NRP appeal against the County Court order for no direct contact is being heard in High Court - because of the level of decision making involved. There have been any number of non-compliance hearings, a residency case while the RP was hospitalised, it's a total mess.

Hmm, it might be the same thing I've read about. If I'm right his DD is now 12 so he feels her childhood years slipping away (if it's the same one!)

Absolutely ridiculous that you go to court for a contact order and have to go back a further 82 times. I honestly do wonder how much weight an actual contact order has and if it's really worth the time in going for one when a parent is so hell bent in stopping contact. Hence, why I'm not sure with the right answer to your question. Is there really a point in going for an order for contact if the parent is determined that he/she will stop you? However, at least if you do go, you can always say to your DC you tried if they look you up in years to come - and have a court order as proof to show (and other means of evidence showing you've tried to initiate contact but have been constantly rebuffed).

The whole court system needs an overhaul.

There were over 40 different court orders issued - the last was a no-contact order which the judge issued because he said it was time to stop exposing the DC to the trauma/distress of a hearing (she was 12 at that time). The NRP has taken that to the court of appeal - the last I heard/read, there were legal arguments over how to determine the DCs wishes and feelings due to the alienation and implacable hostility of the mother.

Thing is, if other NRP give up before then, are they giving up too soon? His court case has cost over £100,000 and taken over his life.
Can a NRP justify "giving up" fighting for any reason? When is enough, enough? Is it OK to keep exposing a DC to questions and examinations to determine whether they are being psychologically damaged by their RP, or whether they have been abused by the NRP? If a DC is settled and happy without contact, is insisting on contact actually in their best interest?

Should a NRP sacrifice other aspects of their life in order to prove their ex "wrong"? The family court is an adversarial process - if one parent says "my DC will be better off without contact with their NRP" it is up to the NRP to prove otherwise.

Frog to respond to your question 'never stop trying creates more conflict' - I think in many cases it does and I think that the child should always know that the NRP did not reject them. I felt/feel rejected by my dad, he could've helped by:

• sending me birthday and Christmas cards
• wishing me happiness - sending the odd letter (email now) asking about me and sharing hopes for me... Not for the situation to be better bit hopes that I was happy/enjoying school/enjoying life in general etc.
• making sure that I knew I could contact him if ever I needed to (and how to)
• him respecting my choice while also telling me that he loved me and that he always would despite the situation I was being (inadvertently) forced to go along with - this would have meant accepting my vocalised wishes at the time while always maintaining contact

I know it's hard to be rejected but these poor kids who're being abused (and I don't use that word lightly) by parents who are so wrapped up in their own desire for revenge are the ones that really suffer as they grown up knowing that their needs came last

You can probably tell that I have experience of this from all angles but really all children need is love - the kind of love that neither of my parents could give BUT (and I think I've followed your threads for years NADM?) the kind of love that your DH is proving that he has. Don't give up hope in them because their mum's forcing them into making impossible choices. Make sure your DH knows that whatever they choose he still loves them. It took till I was nearly 30 before I realised what a nutcase my mum was - I wish my dad had stuck with me through that so that I could tell him I was sorry I rejected him.

heidi How do you know that your Dad didn't send cards/letters, though?
DH writes to his DCs regularly; we know that their post is intercepted and read and not all of it is passed on; DH even used that to his advantage once by sending his DD a copy of the DVD Welcome Back Pluto, in the knowledge that his ex would probably watch it first (she did).

DH has no intention of never contacting his DCs again, and his DD has turned to him after periods of no contact when she has needed help (such as when she was arrested), only to reject him again when her Mums wrath about the contact became too much.

But, is that enough? Or too much? I'm fairly certain that the regular phone calls between DH and his DS will soon become unwelcome; and his DS will come under pressure to reject those,too.

Frog star it's enough to keep trying in as gentle a way as possible. Even if your step children continue to reject their dad he can be sure that he did everything he could.
Does your DSS have email? That's a good starter - his dad can email him and (eventually) it won't be intercepted. When I did start up (tentative and haphazard) contact with my dad it was all through email (in the early days of email) because it was completely private - my mum didn't even know email existed! Unfortunately he was not consistent or persistent and he let me down frequently as put relationship was damage on both sides.
I honestly wish you luck. Your SS ( and SD) need their dads love most when they're rejecting him... I know that's really tough for you cause your allegiance to your DH means that you want to protect him and in this case you just can't.

Your SS ( and SD) need their dads love most when they're rejecting him...

Part of me understands that, but another part of me questions whether creating more conflict for his DCs is a loving thing to do.

For instance, school parents evening is coming up. DH will be offered a separate appointment. If he accepts,his DS will see his dads name on the list and that will create fear/anxiety because he knows that his Mum won't like it. But, it will also reinforce to DS that his Dad hasn't walked away and abandoned him. Which is best? Is it right for a NRP to continue to reassure their DCs that he loves them, when his demostration of that love creates a negative experience for the DC with their RP?

Unfortunately Email isn't an option as it all goes through their mums account. DH used to Facebook message his DD but her mum now logs into her FB account every day.

I honestly don't know what's best - damned if you do damned if you don't. Can you get advice from someone who is experienced in dealing with children's MH?
Perhaps regular phone contact with school is better than going to parents evening. An understanding teacher(s) will remember to inform your DH of what's going on...
Honestly I don't know what I would do in your shoes and I am grateful that DPs ex (although exceptionally difficult) sees us as unpaid child care so we do see the children regularly (even though the oldest makes it clear that she's only with us cause "mum needs a break sometimes" if it was her choice she wouldn't come).

For instance, school parents evening is coming up. DH will be offered a separate appointment. If he accepts,his DS will see his dads name on the list and that will create fear/anxiety because he knows that his Mum won't like it. But, it will also reinforce to DS that his Dad hasn't walked away and abandoned him. Which is best? Is it right for a NRP to continue to reassure their DCs that he loves them, when his demostration of that love creates a negative experience for the DC with their RP?

I understand what your saying Frog, but by not going he's giving Mum exactly what she wants. Is she the type who would still belittle him if he did take a step back? Would she change how she sees it as "EA to the children to have unwanted contact" to "see, dad couldn't be bothered and thinks more of others?"

Basically if he stops contact, would Mum's EA abuse stop?

It's such a difficult position to be in because the child is getting it from all barrels for having contact, yet is it the best thing? Every child deserves a right with both parents despite what one person might think.

Is there a way he could ask for an app but not be put on a list for DSS to see? If not, could he ask for an email update on his progress or a letter via post letting him know how his son is doing?

DH has spoken to everyone he can think of to get advice - some are just niaive about the family court process and believe DH should apply for residency, others have said he should back off completely and wait for DS to come to him and there have been a lot of shrugged shoulders and sympathetic looks.

Fortunately, DHs ex has always been quick to put her position in writing, which has given DH a way of 'proving' that this is what is happening; a lot of professionals have been sceptical until DH have shown them the emails and then they've sat there open mouthed. That doesn't help DHs DS though - and quite rightly, most professionals will focus on the cases where they CAN make a difference.

DH can get an appointment/update at any time, and yes, that can be kept from his DS - but yes, it's likely that if he does that, DS Mum will highlight DHs 'lack of interest' to DS.

DH has given up trying to work out what his exW 'wants' because it changes so quickly. What he's trying to do is limit/minimise the damage.
He recognises that no matter what he does, his DCs will be emotionally damaged. The issue is, what option will result in the least damage.

I agree, no matter what option he takes, there's going to be damage somewhere. He's clearly damaged already with everything that's gone on and I can fully understand you both wanting to minimise that damage with ceasing a relationship - but where that may be a better option for now, it's not to say it's the best one long term.

Wouldn't it be better knowing what kind of turmoil DSS is in at Mum's though so he can always be there for his son if he needs him? What if her irrational behaviour escalates. You've mentioned before about her being DA to his DD, what if it happens to his son too? Having no contact keeps him out of the loop (so to speak) with what is going on at home. Which by all accounts doesn't seem to be a very nice environment if she has so many irrational tendencies.

Wouldn't it be better knowing what kind of turmoil DSS is in at Mum's though so he can always be there for his son if he needs him?

I'm not sure we would know though. Even when DHs DS was having regular contact, there were traumatic events that were never shared with DH - the time that grandma collapsed in the kitchen and hit her head; DS wasn't strong enough to help his mum lift her so the paramedics came and helped. DHs DS never told DH about that - he unburdened himself about how his mum Shouted at him for not being able to help to DHs parents during a brief visit when they took him out for dinner (they visit once a year).
Whether DHs DS had been specifically told not to tell DH, or whether he just knew that his mum would be cross if he did, I don't know - but the fact that he shared it with his grandparents several months later indicates that it was definitely on his mind all that time.

I think it is heartbreaking for everyone concerned though and more heartbreak if you give up. At least with conflict now the children will know that their dad always wanted them and will eventually start to see the damage their mom is causing. I doubt they will ever reject her for it and will still probably side with her as it's their mom but at least as adults they will have a better understanding of the situation. If your DH gives up then they will think that everything mom says is correct and therefore they were to much hassle for dad and have little self worth.

DH has a DS who is now 18. He had regular contact (EW) from 6 weeks old until 13 (DSS mom and DH were never together as such and DSS was result of a 1 night stand but they were friends and DH went to birth etc). At 13 DSS was placed in DH care due abusive behaviour of mom and her being cautioned for assault on a minor. He lived with us for 6 weeks and then mom changed her mind and wanted him back. SS were involved and took him back off us as DH did not have PR, we were stunned as they also allowed contact to stop. 6 months later DSS was taken off mom again and then placed into care as DH had no PR. Sol advised that as DSS had made it clear he wanted to remain with mom and did not want to see DH anymore that PR or contact would be costly and unlikely to be granted due to age of DSS.

Now DSS is older he still has problems where he has to leave home to escape mom partying. His one brother has already moved out (younger) but when ever we talk to DSS about the past and his current situation he says that he knows we wanted him and he is sorry that he lied about us and made it difficult for us to have him because he didn't and still doesn't want to leave his mom. He does not want to leave his brother and young sister with his mom as he feels that he needs to watch out for them and he feels that his mom needs him more than his Dad does. He says that he knows that she only wants him around when she needs him but he loves her. We always made it clear that he is welcome any time but can go 6 months before we hear from him and then it is usually when he turns up needing a bolt hole.

I suppose my point is that we know DSS will always side with mom. He refused to press charges when he was 16 as he knew his mom had a caution that was not spent - he loves her and is desperate for her to love him back unconditionally BUT he knows we love him and are there as and when he wants us and had we not left the communication open he would not have that option. His mom never knows when he visits us as he admits she will either ply him for information or berate him for having no loyalty to her.

sanity I know you're right - DHs DD already knows the damage her mum is doing; the sad thing is that she has (at the moment) resigned herself to that - she knows her mum will ruin her relationships, interfere with her friendships, hijack her career plans. She is living her life treading on eggshells, trying to delay the inevitable for as long as possible.

DH would never "walk away" from them - he'd always keep in touch and be there if they wanted him, but continuing to fight for contact with his DS (repeated court applications, turning up as per court orders even when he knows he'll be rejected etc) seems counterproductive when the fight, and the contact, are damaging to his DS.

My concern is that DH and I become nothing more than rescuers for the DCs through their lives - a place they can take their problems and emotional dirty laundry when they need help and don't want their Mum to know (like his DD being arrested, or turning up on our doorstep drunk and needing medical care) but then when DH and I have bailed them out, they'll disappear again. I'm not sure I'm prepared to have my life disrupted like that - and certainly while my DD is still young, it is something I have to protect her from.
DHs DS deals with life-problems through violence. He is facing transition to secondary school, for which he is unprepared. It is incredibly likely that there will be some issues he will want to keep from his Mum, issues that DH will want to support and parent his DS through - but we expect him to treat DH in exactly the same way as his sister is.