Update - long...

[csadilemma]

Update

Ex rung DH when she heard the news from the CSA. Not happy - obviously (he has a nil assessment and has actually overpaid maintenance after 5 years of non-stop grief from CSA and alleged £30K arrears for which he was threatened with jail, taken to court twice etc etc etc)

First words were "so how much maintenance will you be paying me then"…. Things didn't get too much better from there!

She told him she knew he was lying to the CSA and had fiddled his books. Absolutely not true. She said he could contend the assessment. He said "Go ahead I have nothing to hide" she said she couldn't be bothered!!

Discussion ensued including about housing costs. DH pointed out how much our housing costs are compared to hers - she said "I don't care what your costs are they are irrelevant to me". DH asked whether she would rather we lived in a one bed flat and never had the kids to stay? No response to that (kids stay with us at least 90 nights a year and we also have them often after school etc).

At one point she said "what will I tell the kids?". He said " I don’t care" (I am sure she will think of something - some heart wrenching story about Daddy ripping them off - seeing as back when DH was paying her loads he still got a letter off one son asking why we never paid Mummy maintenance!! So really she can knock herself out telling them about this one - no diff to DH, she has already caused enough damage lying to them and talking to them about maintenance for years, we long ago accepted that there is absolutely NOTHING we can do about it!!)

He said "I will pay all the kids costs - shoes, clothes, school costs, trips etc" as well as what he already pays. She said no way I want cash. He said he would only pay cash based on what we could afford and that in any event this would not be until CSA were resolved (incidentally he isn't really earning so it will be me at end of day who makes cash payments - I would much rather pay for all their costs as and when they arise but accept we will probably end up making cash payments again). They talked about costs again, DH said he would pay towards one of his DS' camping trip. She then said but I am taking him away snowboarding I need money for that… WTF !!?? We are supposed to paying for her and her DP's holidays just because she is bringing DS with her?? Is she quite mad - surely even the most mard nosed PWC doesn't expect her ex to pay for her holidays with her new partner just because the kids are coming ? When does she think we go on holiday?? Never actually, as we can't afford it - she goes at least twice a year!!!

She was so furious - IMO furious that after 5 years of being able to bash DH around the head with tax payers money (CSA)whenever she felt like it, it had all ended up pointless. (Ok, this probably isn't really why but I am feeling cynical). DH asked her why she went to CSA in the first place considering that, at the time, he was paying her over twice what the CSA would have assessed him at, as well as contributing to all extra costs - she said "I was desperate" he said "No you weren't" - never the twain shall meet of course! More like spiteful IMO but there we go. Then, she instantly said - "well can you start paying me that again please". Like WTF???!!! Are we supposed to just put the last 5 years aside, just like that? - all the crap we have been through: the reduced contact (cos we originally had "shared care"), the solicitor's letters accusing DH of all & sundry and threatening to stop all contact, the lies to the kids and the attempts to twist them up about maintenance, the constant slagging, the court attempts, the continued refusal to drop the CSA and go back to voluntary payments (which DH often asked, inlcuding the last time they went to mediation), the lies to the CSA about how much the kids stay here and the voluntary payments (still stupidly made by us for the first 6 months of the claim), the attempts to screw him with liability orders etc etc etc - all of that and now that it has finally turned around in our favour, we are just supposed to just forget all about it and act like nothing has ever happened…and go back to what we were paying her originally because she has suddenly realised she was actually on quite a good deal then??? Not to mention the fact that we can never ever trust her again after going to CSA behind DH's backs when he was paying her voluntarily!!! :Let alone the fact that DH used to have to work constantly and go away for trips with work etc to earn that kind of money - something he can't do now that we have our own child who he looks after during the week…

Its amazing actually the relationship has suddenly totally changed - she suddenly has lost the "power" to kick him that she has had for the last 5 years with the CSA funding her hatred of him. Its weird, everything has changed. Not sure what will happen, the CSA definitely haven't asked her to pay back the overpayment as she would def. have mentioned this, so maybe we will still ask them for it - they obviously only said that to DH to deter him from asking for it back. Slippery buggers.

It is all so confusing!! Living in London - is there anybody out there with kids who actually finds that they have left over money after all the bills have been paid? Is this supposed to be different for those familys who include a Dad who no longer lives full time with his children - are we supposed to be able to "magic" unlimited funds out of the air???????????? Are we the only ones up to our eyeballs in debt????

csadilema sounds like things have been crap for all concerned. Wanted to let you know you are not alone in some of your difficulties. I live in London and agree life is hard. I see maintence issues from both sides. I receive £40 a week from my X husband via CSA. This doesn't even cover one day's nursery fee. But X doesn't work very hard so has a low income thus 15% of a low income is nothing compared to the actual costs of raising a child in London. on other hand my DH gives £1,200 to his X wife (voluntary agreement). X wife doesn't have a job but as she is remarried to somone who works assume she doesn't claim benefits either. X wife has far better standard of living than we do, even though I work full time. I hardly see DH as he works long hours. DH spends approx £500 a monnth travelling to see his boys.
I think the big problem is that when parents separate there are 2 households instead of one so the standard of living cannot be the same as if there was just one houshold. But this is hard to accept for all concerned.

Thanks LV - you sound like you are paying crazy amounts!! 1200 is kind of ridiculous - obviously he earns a lot, but it is always going to be hard to get ahead paying that much!

I normally don't complain and don't really find my life that hard. Yes we are broke but who isn't? I actually totally accept my life and the money side of it (else why would I be paying the maintenance myself) it is just years of being kicked and lied about that gets me down.

But my DH does work really hard he just doesn't earn much as some of the work he is doing he won't make back for a long time and what he does earn is irregular. But as soon as we come into money we will share it around I guess it is just being on the recieivng end of the CSA for so long and the fact that we have been slagged off for so long that gets me. Also the refusal to understand that we have housing costs as well - you are right about the 2 incomes commnet.

I guess most PWCs would say to DH that he should just get a full time job and then pay it all out in maintenance but he has ALWAYS worked for himself and not earned much and it really would shaft my job if he was to work FT so I don't see why he should so long as we are meeting the kids extra costs. Plus in his industry when he did work FT he works really really hard 9sometimes 7 days a week) for not much money it just isn't really worth it. But your comment about your ex "not working hard" suggests that most PWCs do really think that Dads who don't earn much are at fault….lazy?? But I don't think being a parent is all about money, I just don't. DH is a really good dad who is always there for his kids - I wish that would count for something.

I actually don't think that maintenance should be there to pay PWC's housing costs in cases where the kids see both parents - inour case ex and her DP would have the same housing costs regardles of whether kids were there (they have a child of their own). She has told us she doesn't care less about our housing costs so really by the same token should I care about hers? The kids live at both houses even if they do spend more time there.

Really I do realise it is crap for everybody and of course she wants more money but CSA just divides everybody and turns things to crap.

She should never have gone to them in the first place - that decision has caused so much crap for everybody and now she has ended up worse off.

i do want to move ahead really. Once this dies down we will start paying again without the CSA being involved & pay extra costs but what that amount will be I am not sure. DH is not suddenly going to turn into a big earner - he looked after kids and didn't earn much when they were together - why should it all be so different now they are apart.

It is also difficult where the trust has gone.

It was wrong of her to tell the kids he wasn't paying anything when we were paying her a lot under voluntary agreement. I don't know hwy she did it but it does make things hard now - we are damned if we do and damned if we don't.

Ok have been thinking about this. CSA are now out of our lives hence it is time for all the petty conflict to stop (mainly it has stopped already except for this).

DH and I both acknowledge that maintenance still needs to be paid and ex has got good reason to be angry - anybody would be. Guess now it is just a matter of working out a sensible way ahead for the future.

csidilema we pay big amounts in maintenace as it ensures we have good relationship with X wife and no access hassles. I did go through a phase of wanting to work 4 days not 5 which would have meant reducing X wife's maintenance we took view that we didn't want to rock the boat. My DSS live a plane ride away from us so we need their biological mother to work with us on contact arrangements.

I do think parents have an obligation to earn as much money as they can but at same time be able to give emotionaly to their kids. A juggling act for each parent given their individual circumstances. I wouldn't dream on commenting on whether or not your DP should change career as I don't know the full circumstances.

My DSS come for a week every 6/7 weeks during half term but we don't reduce the maintenance when they are with us. In fact trips to lego land, bowling etc make for an expensive week.

Thanks LV for responding.

"csidilema we pay big amounts in maintenace as it ensures we have good relationship with X wife and no access hassles."

Well in my experience you cannot always rely on that - not that we have ever paid as much as you!!

"I do think parents have an obligation to earn as much money as they can but at same time be able to give emotionaly to their kids."
Yes maybe to an extent but I don't think emotional support and financial support are the same thing - everybody accepts mums not earning much but not so much sympathy for dads. Dh has so many commitments to his kids including childcare for our DD. Surely she is as important as his other 2? No more or less, but equal. His ex's DP also doesn't earn much and does a lot of childcare for their child so don't think it is that unreasonable for it to be the same in this house?. DH always did find it hard to find a job he could fit aorund his commitements to his children especially when we had them 130 nights or so a year because we could not plan ahead and book childcare etc as contact was prome to being chopped and changed at the last minute. If kids were suddenly dropped at our door with no notice while DH was contracted on a big job then he had no choice but to drop his tools and come home for 2 weeks to look after them. His soution previously was to work at a friend's company but he can't work there anymore. I wouldn't ask my Dh to change his career - he is in his 40's, he works his ar*E off for his family every day of his life, whether paid or not, his kids love him for who he is & do understand why he doesn't earn much and his ex is never going to see the good in anything he does anyway so what's the difference. Plus maybe one day we will actually make good money - just because he is not traditional 9-5 doesn't mean he won't - we have lots of things on the go.

I do sympathise with your situation although it does seem very different to ours in that we see the kids constantly they really do have "two homes". We live 5 minutes from them and close to their school. So it is not a matter of entertaining them with trips out when we see them as really it is just all very normal when they are here. Alaso they are older and have slightly grown out of lego land!!!!

Personally I think you must be a saint to pay that much to "buy contact". It is ludicrous whatever way you look at it. Hopefgully ex will never decide one day that she wants a bigger piece of the pie. Do you have your own kids with your DH?? If you did, then I would find 1200 a month hard to reconcile with the phrase "in the best interests of the children".

csadilema DH and I don't have a child together. We would have liked one but financially it is not possible as nursery fees would double. Also I don't feel DD gets enough attention now (because I work full time) her attention time would be less if she had a baby sibling. DH had work travel committments and because he is a man who works in the City he 'cannot' leave a meeting to collect DD so I am totally responsible for nursery drop off/ collections/ bath time etc.
I hope X wife doesn't become difficult about contact as DH has had the snip so too late to have another child now (if worst happened and he was denied contact).

I do sometimes wonder why me as the current wife was only allowed 1 child and X wife has luxuary of 2 kids and is SAHM but that it part and parcel of being 2nd wife you have to fit in with current circumstances.
Its not that big a deal not having a child with my DH as my DD has never met her bio father and she calls DH Daddy so we are a 'proper' family really.

You are right that society accepts mothers who work part time but don't seem accepting of dads who do the same. Until I read this post I didn;t realise I was sexist!

Thanks for your post LV it is good to hear your story.

It isn't fair that you were not "allowed" to have another DD but personally I think to a large extent it depends on whether you care what others think of you. I would have said sod the ex wife and what she thinks about her money dropping!! And just let her try to stop contact - if anything we would have a better case for contact as there would be new sibling to see!! But obivously you have other reasons as well. Its funny you know (although slightly off topic) but I know so many mothers who work FT who only ever have one child for the reasons you state whereas I work FT and can't wait to have more. But the reason I can do that is because i am with DH who I have accepted doesn't earn much… its all swings and roundabouts. Yes it would be nice not to have so much financial pressure on me but then again the entire family benefits from DH being so flexible - even his older kids really - they don't go without regardless of what their mother might say they are certainly not under privileged children - plus they have a dad on call whenever they need him.

Shame about your ex - but again I just think it is impossible to compare a true "absent father" with my DH. If the Dad is giving no emotional support then maybe it is fair enough to make it all about money but in cases like ours it is not so black and white. We have it pretty good actually as regards contact etc - not as good as we used to but who knows not that CSA are well and truly out of it we will probably find that relaxes again as well - no more night counting to avoid "shared care" (we are under old system so it is 104 nights a year).

I still say 1200 is a lot of money!!!! Go for 4 days if that is what you want to do - this is your only child & you will quick yourself later if you don't - believe me you won't get any thanks and praise from the ex or anybody else anybody for your sacrifice (in fact probably the opposite) so what have you got to lose ! Forgive me for being a trouble maker but you seem to have sacrificed quite enough Xx

sorry meant to say "you will kick yourself"!!

This particular post has bought up a lot of points very familiar to me (I am a 2nd wife, and a 1st, I have 1 son of my own, DP has 2 kids, we have another together).

Sorry I haven't the time to write at length right now, but find the "pay per view" attitude of some mothers appalling. My own ex is a high earner, but self employed, and has never paid me as much as CSA guidelines dictate. I've never set them on him as their rules regarding self-employed are notoriously easy to wriggle out of. Meanwhile he enjoys several luxury holidays a year ..... still, why am I complaining, I don't actually want to be with him anymore ! Thing is though, I wouldn't dream of restricting/obstructing contact however much he paid me, even if it were nothing at all because at the end of the day, I want my son to maintain a relationship with his dad (even if I do have to nag at my ex to keep this going).

My DP's ex is another story. Were I to start relating what's happened over the last 5 years (and she's still going strong) I'd be here all night. Her kids are definitely pay per view. DP recently and legitimately reduced maintenance because we were paying it out of savings and they ran out. Now she's getting what the CSA say - which of course has caused ructions. Mind you, during the past 6.5 years since she split, she has received an additional (to CSDA rates) £20000 or so in Child Maintenance alone, which is now conveniently forgotten .... not that the "extra" was ever appreciated. Like you, my DP is a "selfish thief" and "uncaring irresponsible father".

My DP bears all the travel costs for seeing his kids, even though his ex moved. This is an extra £100 per month, about which we have no choice. The selfish bleep won't meet him even a yard down the road, meaning a 5 hour round trip for DP after a full week's work, twice a weekend, and skids getting to bed at midnight.

Ex doesn't work (surprise ?) ... yet tells the skids that it's DP's sole responsibility to keep them all. She doesn't see why she "should" work apparently. There have been so many lies over the years .... he has 2 very mixed up kids, 1 of whom he hasn't seen for 6 months, and ex not willing to help resolve that at all (in fact, she revels in DP's upset).

Like I said, I really haven't got time to write much. It's very sad and very infuriating that there are people out there who are so vindictive, unreasonable, unfair, willing to use kids as weapons etc., and there's very little that can be done to stop them. I don't for a minute think all ex-wives are like this (I'm not !) but there are some who will simply never be happy no matter how much money they're given, and who have their heads so firmly in the clouds that they continue a vendetta for "more" money, even though their demands would leave their ex-H's homeless (and unable to have their children to stay at all).

Any similarly hassled 2nd wives might be interested in this:

\link{http://www.thebritishsecondwivesclub.co.uk\British Second Wives Club}

I've found it invaluable as a 2nd wife and stepmum ..... in the real world, it's often extremely hard to discuss such issues with anyone other than someone else who's experiencing the same.