Has anyone any experience of gaining full custody of a child? How do you go about it? And is it the answer?

[Raptor]

DP, who has three children from his marriage, is having a tough time arriving at an arrangement that he thinks is in his children's best interests (particularly one of them). He and his XW have a court-ordered arrangement, which is almost 50:50. What isn't working with this is that his eldest child (DSC1) has a very troubled relationship with his mum and is deeply unhappy at (her) home.

We and extended family (including the mum's own mother, to her dismay) have all witnessed the dynamic: DSC1 (9) is regularly shouted at, sworn at and physically dragged about by his mum, while the middle child is favoured and seems to be able to do no wrong (DSC2 is consequently developing some 'diva' behaviours that we're finding challenging). DSC1 desperately wants to live with his dad; he hates his mum, and has said as much for years. He cries almost every time he has to return to her, and begs one of us/another relative to not make him go, or to stay with him. He does seem to bear the brunt of his mum's frustrations, and this year at school, he has actually gone backwards, despite being bright. He is also developing toileting problems, so is clearly stressed.

DP, understandably, is finding this very distressing and ideally wants to remove his eldest from this situation altogether and into a consistently stable and loving environment, so his son can get on with his life and come out of this experience as unscathed as possible. (He'd consider having all three all/most of the time, but the youngest seems to like having time in both homes, and the middle favoured child ? for obvious reasons ? would rather be with Mum for now. Plus DP's work commitments, and therefore income, could become compromised at the moment with all three, with the younger two being much more dependent.)

The difficulty, as far as we understand it, is that the courts don't take the child's wishes into serious consideration until they're older (double figures?), and also, they seem to like to keep siblings together. We can both see the value of this in most families, but where DSC1 already feels loathed by his mum, DSC2 being favoured by her under his nose seems to be compounding how disliked the eldest feels by his mum - and making him resent his sibling. If DSC1 were to be with us all/most of the time, he'd still be with his siblings half the time and be able to develop his relationships with them then, but with Dad as the main adult, so all the children would be treated fairly.

We realise custody is a far-from-ideal course of action to be considering, but we can't see what else we can do. Mum doesn't think she's doing anything wrong but that it's all the son's problem, and honestly, we can't see her changing ? there doesn't seem to be any self-awareness there at all, or interest in changing the dynamic or building a bond with DSC1 (DP says there's never really been a bond between them). So DP feels that he has to try to do something for his eldest. Is applying for custody the answer? And how do you go about it, especially when it's for one child out of three? Or do you go for all three on the grounds of how DSC1 is being treated? Or do we have any other options in this kind of very difficult situation?

Sorry for the length, and thanks so much for any help with this.

Bump ...

Have you asked DSC1 and his mother, together, about having a different access arrangement for him? Even if the courts tend to want to keep DCs together in the case of court rulings, families can negotiate between themselves and get those decisions rubber stamped.

Thank you for posting, Bonsoir. That's got to be worth a punt; we hadn't thought of that to be honest, because DP and his XW already have a court-enforced arrangement, so we assumed they'd need to go back to court to change this. It hadn't occurred to us that Mum/Dad/DSC1 could try to agree it in principle between them, before simply getting the court to sign off a revised arrangement.

To be honest, I fear that DSCs' mum won't be amenable; solicitors' letters have been exchanged in the past hinting at DSC1 having more time with his dad, and DP's XW has opposed this. She feels the children should be kept together, and that they should stay with her because her home has always been their home, and she believes (because she doesn't work) that she can offer them more stability than DP - although in practice, this couldn't be further from the truth.

We also suspect that if the DSCs' residency, collectively, were to tip towards them being with their dad slightly more than their mum, she would resist, because child support payments would reduce/end, and she has said she doesn't intend to work - hence she really needs this income.

But despite all of the above, I still think it's a good idea; if the situation does end up having to be resolved in court, prior discussions would demonstrate that efforts had been made to meet DSC1's needs outside of court first.

Thanks again.

Is it currently a joint residency order, or does mum have residency with a contact order in place?
Courts no longer award 'custody' and overturning an existing residency order is not something the courts will consider except in exceptional circumstances.
However, if your DP already has joint residency, then the contact order can be changed - and in my experience, CAFCASS will listen and consider a young child's views - my DSS was six when he was spoken to by them and his wishes and feelings were referred to in their report.

Thanks, NotaDisneyMum. I'm not entirely sure what arrangement DP and his XW have (i.e. if it's joint residency or not ... I think I've heard 'shared residency' mentioned?). My XP and I never went the court route, so the terminology isn't familiar to me; we just let our DC steer our arrangement, which works well for us. So I'll check with DP this evening.

It's also encouraging to hear that CAFCASS were sympathetic towards your DSS's wishes and feelings; we weren't expecting them to take much heed of DSC1's views at his age, particularly because he's one of three and he and the middle child don't share the same perspective, and the youngest (3) is too young really to have a considered view. It's heartening to hear DSC1 may have more of a voice than we thought.

Thanks again.

I suggest that your DP digs out his copy of the Order and checks exactly what is written down - there are loads of resources on line that explain the jargon.
Most solicitors offer 1/2 hour free appointments, so he could go along and find out what his options are, too.

Could you suggest to the ex that you alter the contact arrangements not to change the amount each DC spends in each house, but so that DSC1 and 2 each get some time apart and one to one with each parent?

Probably more tricky logistically but could be really good for their relationships with both parents.

I would have thought that what you suggest of DSC1 coming to live with you mainly (but still having regular contact at his mum's presumably) would only worsen the already strained relationship they seem to have, whilst DSC2 could become even more of mum's favourite - sharing lots of things with her that DSC1 wasn't around for.

My DSD came to live with us when she was 6,her Mum had primary residency before then, so it can be done. The reasons for the transfer were different to yours, but also DSD led... She came for a regular access weekend and refused to go home. However, residency before then had been agreed between DH & his ex-W, so there was no 'overturning' of a residency order, we just applied for a new one.

There are still definitely problems to overcome but they are nowhere as challenging as what was happening before we fought for custody, so I would definitely say the change was in DSD's best interests.

Thank you purpleroses and DharmaBumpkin.

DSC1 doesn't want any time at all with his mum, so it's difficult to know if the relationship would worsen or not if he were to no longer live with her. Given the extent of his current distress, we feel he just needs to be out of the dynamic completely - and this is what he wants. Mum would have to be interested in building her relationship with him too, if there were still to be contact, and she doesn't appear to be. Worth thinking about though.

DP has a shared residency order, which is good news, as the contact arrangement can then be changed (although I don't know if this means DSC1 will have to still have some time with Mum?). We have decided to ask Mum and DSC1 to come over and talk about this in the next few days. DP would like me to be there too, as XW can be very overbearing and aggressive in the way she communicates. Is this OK do you think? I don't want to interfere, but I absolutely want to support DP and DSC1.

Great that your DSD is happier/more settled, DharmaBumpkin; this is what we're hoping for for DSC1.

I don't having DSC1 present at the first meeting is such a good idea if things could kick off. Far better they be present once the details have been thrashed out and you can all present a united front.

As to whether you should be present, I'm not sure...depending on your relationship with EXP this could be inflammatory. Only you can decide that one or perhaps ask XP if she'd mind you being there.

Good thought about DSC1 being there, redfairy. Maybe we could give him the choice.

As for me not being there, XW would probably prefer this, because DP is easier to bully into submission on his own; he's a tough yet quiet man, and XW leaves almost everyone feeling like a deer in headlights, as her conversational style is so dominating. DP says he ends up feeling in fight-or-flight mode when trying to talk with her; where I'm somewhat emotionally removed, I'm not worried about this. I know what DP wants to achieve for DSC1's benefit, and could back him up. Perhaps DP could say I will be there too, and perhaps she might like to bring a friend/family member along with her to help balance the discussion. Ultimately, I think she's more likely to be reasonable if others are there too.

Thanks.

What is your relationship like with the ex-W like, Raptor? That will alter the dynamic of who is at the meeting.

One way to do it so the children have a say but aren't exposed to aggro would be to have an initial 10 min meeting with DSC1,and once they have said their bit, the adults (including you if appropriate) could talk without them in the room?

I agree that it's best done without the kids present in an ideal world, but certainly in our case the ex didn't really accept that it was DSD-led and very much assumed we were playing mind games with her.

Cross post!

If your DP would prefer not to talk to his ex on his own, I would recommend mediation with an impartial mediator rather than you being there - there is bound to be an emotional reaction to your presence from both of them, which isn't going to help!

Unless there are issues of abuse or neglect, then continued contact with his mum should be a priority for both parents - its up to her whether she chooses to work at their relationship, but opting out of contact is not a choice a child should ever be given IMO - all your DP can do is tell his ex how unhappy their DS is.

I agree with NADM - a stepparent shouldn't be a mediator between two divorced parents over child contact arrangements. You may make your opinions known to your partner and your DSC in your own home (you have every right to have opinions about your family life) but you need to leave the negotiations up to the two of them. If you think that the other parent is systematically going to out-negotiate everyone else, your partner needs someone else to mediate.

All valid points. I think my relationship with XW is civil and reasonable, but still, I'm really not the ideal mediator, am I?

If XW and DP meet just the two of them, it will be a waste of time; with no one else around, she will kick off - shout, scream, insult, tears, etc. Nothing will come of it. The problem with 'proper' mediation is firstly that XW has refused to cooperate with this in the past, and secondly, DP's mediator contact told him he falls through the cracks - i.e. he can't afford it but isn't eligible for legal aid.

How about this for an idea: DP emails a reasonable case to XW for having their DS more. This way, there'll be none of the problems of a conversation, there'll be time to think carefully about what he's saying, plus there'll be a paper trail, should they end up in court. Better plan?

And DP said DSC1 has said he'd still visit his mum - just not live there anymore.

Thanks again. Got to get to work!

Email is very good, I think. DP emails exW a lot. She is quite difficult to negotiate with too and what works is making emails very short and to the point. Lots of data and she gets confused.

"DSC1 has said he would like to spend more time at our house. I am very open to this idea and would like to suggest we give this a trial run for two months, starting in September when school goes back. The arrangement that would work best for our family is XXX. Would this work for you or have you got an alternative that you would like us to consider?"

I think "trial runs" are a good idea, personally. Less constraining for all concerned.

I think email can work well. Like you say less chance for shouting and emotions and time to reflect on it.

I also think that your role is certainly to support your DP, but you'd be better off not being involved directly with him and his ex unless she is completely OK about this. I'd find it infuriating to have to deal with my ex and his DP - someone I've never chosen to be involved with my kids - and suspect she may feel similarly.

But really think you'd be best to approach it from the angle of "how can we all help DSC1 to be happier?" - rather than "we'd like him to come and live with us" One option on the table may be for him to have increased time with his dad, but unless the relationship with his mum has broken down really badly (physical abuse, etc) then it surely wouldn't be in his best interests to have no regular contact? Especially if he'd be living half the time with two siblings who do see their mum. I'd have thought that could be quite damaging. Could you offer to have him live mainly with you for a few months - with a view to giving them both some time and space to improve the relationship?

The problem with email is it probably won't really move anything forward, she could just respond 'no' and then what? Also how might she react with DSS when she receives it? And finally that doesn't really give DSS chance to get his point across - esp if she confronts him.
Is there any family member (you mentioned her own mother) who could act as mediator? Or if that's too close a mutual friend or anyone independent?

If the email doesn't work, the OP's DP can always adopt more direct tactics. But I think it is a good idea to start off with the assumption that exW can be tackled in a reasonable way!

The problem with 'proper' mediation is firstly that XW has refused to cooperate with this in the past, and secondly, DP's mediator contact told him he falls through the cracks - i.e. he can't afford it but isn't eligible for legal aid.

I was faced with this problem earlier this year; my exH requested mediation, I couldn't afford it, wasn't eligible for legal aid and ex refused to pay.

At the end of the day, I had to make a decision within the reality I found myself in. DD was not as happy as she could be, but she was not at risk or in danger, and I had to accept that I had done everything I could, but could not go any further at that time.

If changing the contact/care arrangement for your DSS isn't possible right at the moment, then the alternative is to support your DSS to change the way in which he responds to the situation he is in. Youth Counselling and support is available for free in many places; either through the school, or GP referral.
My DSS has had two courses of counselling to help him cope with certain aspects of his life and issues he has with his mum and older Dsis. He was six when he did the first one - it was play base,d totally confidential and the therapist supported him to decide for himself what he wanted his parents to know, and to express it to them in his own words.

You have mentioned medical, developmental and emotional symptoms that your DSS has developed; possibly as a result of the problems he is experiencing with his mum. Has your DP involved the school and GP in relation to these? As long as he doesn't accuse his ex of anything, and instead seeks professional support to help his DS, without expressing an opinion as to what the underlying problems could be, then these agencies will be all too willing to help. Its only in cases where one parent points the finger and blames the other one that they tend to stay out of it.

Very interested to see how this pans out as in similar situation with dsd(8) wanting to move in with us and unhappy at home... Dps ex uncooperative and uncommunicative. good luck and interested to see how things pan out for you.