My DP would like more contact

[CC2B]

I put this in the Lone Parent thread, kind of by accident, and don't think I'll be getting too much response there. I'm hoping I might get some perspective from the experienced souls here.

I did post this in the Relate expert thread, but really didn't get my question addressed accurately. So therefore, this is a bit long to make things as clear as possible.

My DP has two DC, a DD of 7 and a DS of 3.

He left his ex last May and initially, his ex didn't allow him to have the children at his new place. However, overnights started to happen last August and things settled down a bit.

The children met me in early January, which went well, and we moved into a place together in late February, where the children have a lovely room that they love.

He currently has an arrangement with her for the children to be with us for Thursday dinner-time (5pm-6.30pm) each week, and then an overnight on Saturdays EOW (they arrive 9am on Sat and leave 6.30pm on Sun). So this is only 2 overnights per month.

He isn't very happy with this and doesn't feel it's good for either of the kids, but, of course, his ex is the RP and has all the control. He doesn't want to take it to court yet, as it's been a struggle to get to a civil way of working which only ever feels a transient thing. She doesn't want to talk, so texting and emailing is how everything has been arranged so far. Also, although his ex will probably be entitled to legal aid, my DP wouldn't be, but is horribly in debt already, because of having to take loans to fund their joint mortgage until last December, since she is refusing to sell. (She is now funding this herself with SMI benefits).

Her reasoning behind not wanting the children to stay for an extra night on the Sunday EOW was initially that the 3-year-old is too young and then became that it was "unrealistic" and "impractical". I completely understand that she may not want to lose the children for another night, but we can't understand why it's impractical, or why his DS is too young for a 2-night stay with his father, whom he loves to bits. I also have a great relationship with both children and they are very comfortable when they stay with us. It doesn't feel like this decision is remotely in the best interests of the children so I'm just trying to see if there are viewpoints out there that we've missed. This is particularly true since they have spent more than two nights with us on a view occasions now and it's always been completely fine and everyone's been happy (4 nights at Easter, and a 2-nighter to make up for a missed weekend, and then a 2-nighter last weekend when his ex went somewhere - so this one is interesting since it was definitely her choice and basically asking for a favour, which of course my DP snapped up!).

He has tried mediation btw. They went to two sessions (costing him £300 each time and her nothing) and then she pulled out, leaving him to receive an official letter telling him this in December 2011.

Sorry about the length!

Would the Friday night be better? Then there isn't the issue of school uniform etc. Friday - Sunday EOW. Can he do school runs etc? Extending the EOW Thursday - Sunday isn't wildly beyond the norm.

Also going to court needn't cost the earth, you can self-rep and FNF are a fantastic help.

I would also suggest Friday night, rather than Sunday. My DC do Sunday as well with their dad these days, but tbh it does create some practical issues re school in the morning and not having the right stuff with them. DP returns his to his ex on the Sunday evening and that's nice and straightforward. Or could the length of the Thursday evenings be extended by getting them a bit earlier? Or have an overnight on a Friday on the week when they're not staying the weekend?

I don't think email's a bad way of communicating if there are tensions - could your DP email her to explain that he'd like to see more of them - explain why he wants this (yes, I know it's obvious, but good if he can give a little detail - is it the length of the gaps between visits he finds hard?, or the fact that visits are short and not long enough to settle in? Good if he can make it sound like it would be fun for the kids - and possibly useful to the ex - rather than just wanting more time for the sake of it).

Or could he start by suggesting a few one-off extras - eg pick up on a Friday for some special reason (eg visit grandparents) and see how it goes?

He could tell his ex that he remembers she's said there were practical issues, but he'd like to have a think with her as to whether there might be any ways round these.

I can understand the fact that Friday night would be less hassle. The main reason my DP would prefer the Sunday, if he's only going to get 2 nights EOW is that, because his DD goes to a club on Saturday mornings during term time he (us) wouldn't have a completely clear full day (apart from school hols, I guess), which does seems a shame for all concerned. But maybe that will just have to be the thing that goes.

Earlier on Thursday has been suggested (but that's only for another hour-and-a-half which seems small fry). However, the school run, particularly the afternoon one is tricky because my DP has a v responsible job in a city about 25 minutes away by train so would struggle to be consistent in picking up. And I think we both feel that inconsistency would be problematic.

Purpleroses, my DP has done exactly that in a few emails already - I agree that email is better than trying to talk if talking is hated... However, his mails are usually met with either mocking sarcasm or a straight refusal to engage properly with the discussion.

So there have been the occasional variation and longer visit and they've been really good. In fact, this weekend, when DP's ex was away and asked him to have Fri and Sat, his DD asked me on the Sunday if she was staying and was definitely disappointed when I said 'no'. We did think we could perhaps approach again as a result of this weekend (trying v hard not to do the 'well, it suited you when you needed it, didn't it?' angle, of course!).

And balia, interesting that court doesn't need to break the bank. It will have to be considered more seriously if he can't do it more gently.

Hi CC2B.

I agree with all the others have said, but I had a question. The gap between him leaving his ex and moving in with you seems small - did he leave his ex for you? If so, I would expect that she is still feeling angry and resentful. I am not flaming you for this, but if this is the case, then perhaps a slowly slowly approach will work best. You say that the number of double overnights has increased recently - and it sounds as though it's been initiated by her - which, regardless of the reasons why she wanted it, is good. Your DP could email her now, saying how much he enjoyed having the DCs this weekend for the longer period, and he would like to have that happen far more often.

I have been in precisely her position (if my assumption above is right), and it took me a long time to accept that the children stayed with their dad for whole weekends, and that his new girlfriend, who he had left me for, was spending that time with my DCs. I was angry for many months, but in the end realised that in not letting go of that anger I was only damaging myself. In the end, it has all worked out just fine, and I am glad of the space EOW, as I forge a new relationship with a DP.

These things do take time, things will relax a little when she gets a new partner, as uc said they then appreciate the time as well rather than trying to make it awkward for you. Do you think she would comply with a court order anyway or would that set the relationship back further. My dp had a court order but that doesn't mean they will be there when you go to collect them and as the non resident patent there isn't much to do. I'm afraid it did take a number of years to settle down, and that was when she was with a new partner. We now get texts asking for extra nights and days and she even bought our baby a present when it was born. I suppose what I'm saying is stay calm, enjoy what to get and gave them extra when on offer. Do you have them for any holiday time, we have ours for 1 week in the holidays she may be pleased to have them out if her hair for a week or few days and its great evidence if ever it goes to court that you can look after them and they are happy with lobger stays.

So, patience seems to be the key. Well, that's good, as that's what DP is doing, really. I think the other reason that going to court seems silly and drastic is the fact that court orders aren't enforceable anyway, and yes, I do think there's a possibility she wouldn't comply, as well as the fact that it could cause incredible bad feeling, as balia pointed out in another thread.

Slowly, slowly will do. DP and his DCs have a lovely time when they are together, as do I - currently none of the horror stories often read on MN, but I realise there's plenty of time and they're only little...! And pmgkt, we are currently working on a one-day-extra-for-each-week-of-school-hol so he is getting two extended weekends over the summer hols, which will be nice.

Fair question, UC. The situation when we got together was odd - I was coming out of a sudden and v weird marriage break-up and we've been friends for years and it changed quickly. My DP was planning on leaving (had been for a long time) but hadn't done it, and so there was an overlap. 2-and-a-half-weeks, but I know the length is largely irrelevant for most people. So, yes, I guess I have to accept that to everyone else, I'll look like the OW and that makes me v sad since my marriage broke up cos of an affair.

So, of course, I do try to take into account that DP's ex will be feeling angry - it's totally understandable, I still am about my stbexH.

I'll suggest DP does the gentle email re having had a lovely time with extended time and go from there.

Thank you for your advice.

In that case I think you should handle things very carefully.
Your DPs ex is probably still reeling from the split (I was for a few years and you probably are too to some extent)
Take it slowly and try increasing co tact gradually and not demanding too much time.
I'm sure in time she will want to have kid free time (when she meets someone) but at the moment they are all she has so she is probably clinging to them a bit and at 3 the youngest is still just a tot.
Good luck

A tip for your DP - if he doesn't do it already - is to make sure he says "I" rather than "we" at all times in his communication with his ex. There's nothing more infuriating than feeling you're dealing a couple when you only want to co-parent with your ex. Obviously the kids will mention you've been around, but if your DP can leave you out of any conversations he has with his ex, that may help a little to smooth things over. And maybe try to avoid being around at any handovers if you can manage it.

Yes time, and if you can have the kids in any way that helps the ex have a social life, then do it - even if that's a bit out of the usual routine. Much as it should be for the kids' benefit, having a bit of free time is a major motivator behind making sure your kids see their dad, in my experience.

All good advice, thank you.

I get 'reeling', yes, Kaluki! I suppose the thing is that everyone deals with these things differently, and I can be horribly pragmatic about life. And I know for sure that it makes a difference that I don't have my own DCs with my ex.

Purpleroses, DP is very careful to say "I" for the most part. I'm really interested in language (my job!) and so we (sorry!) draft/ edit communications carefully, as I know the power of pronouns, for example. The only time I'm mentioned is if it would be ridiculous to not do so.

Handovers are not done F2F - she parks just away from the front of our house and the kids come to the door. DP sometimes helps them on the way back, with bags and stuff. So we have not seen each other (apart from peripherally and by accident - ie. no eye contact) for the whole time, and have exchanged no words at all. My concern with this is that it's building up to something when there's no choice, which is on the cards in the next few months, if DP has an operation on the cards (but that's a different thread, I guess!). I don't like being invisible, but do think it's for the best for everyone for now, especially the children.

We will, I'm sure, continue to say 'yes' to extra time whenever offered, unless it's impossible, and, hopefully, that will start to allow her to enjoy some time to herself. I'd love her to get a DP in time, but will be amazed if she does this within the next five years, knowing what I do about her (long) history with DP.

Cc2b word to the wise for the sake of all concerned having seen things from a rp and a nrp side if ur p can stay out of court its a lot better, as if things r strained between ur p and his x they will get worse if court becomes an inevitable intervention contact may even b stopped with no valid reason other than "dc wishes" wish ppl cud get along and b adult 4 the sake of the dc... I always promised myself when my 2 were born they would always havea relationship with both of us regardless of the situ that the x is now puttin me thru ... i wish u all the love and luck in the world x

What about a weekend night every weekend rather than 2 every other weekend?

My boys do Fri evening (around 5.15pm) - Sat evening (after tea) one week and Sat evening (around 4.30pm) - Sun evening (before tea - so they can settle and get an early night before school) the next week.

They were quite small when it started (5y and 2y) and we both thought that more frequent contact was best.

They also do overnight Mon's, ex picks them up from school and drops them back there on Tue morning's.
He was picking up from me at around 5.15pm, but was made redundant last year and started picking them up from school. He is contracting at the moment and mostly his GF picks them up from school.

So they are seeing their dad 4 days of the week.

Re your points on the dd's Sat morning club - taking them to clubs is part of being a parent, her mum doesn't get to have that time with her either and is having to do all the running around for it. If you had them Fri - Sun then your DP gets to be involved in that.

Thanks makeminearose. Steering as wide clear from court as possible, esp after we spent Friday night talking to a friend going through the 'system' at the moment! Thanks for your love and luck!

Every weekend could be an option but I'm not sure that anyone would be that keen on it, inc DP's ex. She takes them away for weekends quite a lot, it seems, so I think that wouldn't appeal to her. Glad it's working for you though; I get that little and often could be better. You may, however, have slightly misunderstood my comments re the Saturday club, as we already do deal with it, and take DSD there and pick her up etc, EOW. It's just that that does mean there's never an empty day in term time, when we could go further afield or do a whole-day activity, because of it, and then needing them back for 6.30pm on Sundays. if we could have Sunday night too, then Sunday could offer that flexibility. Not a biggie, but would be nice.

Lots of food for thought.

Once again, thank you all for the brilliant advice here.

Update: DP wrote a lovely email to his ex asking for Friday nights from the new academic year, concentrating on the benefit to the children, etc. as suggested above

AND, she's agreed! Well, from October, as she wants to let DSS (3) settle into nursery first (absolutely fair enough). And there's issues over a thing they do early Friday evenings atm in terms of pick ups and when etc., but in principle, he'll get them for 4 nights a month, instead of 2 from October.

Yay! I think. Although, bang goes my Friday nights...! And hello to two hideously early mornings instead of one!! But hey...! For the good of the children and my DP, for sure!

As a Sm and a mother, I have a problem with the fact that your DP requires a 'full free day'. So, your Step kids aren't allowed to do activities in case it infringes your free time?

Seriously?

I have a (nearly) 3 YO and a 4YO and trying to fit in everything they need / want to do is difficult. Would be impossible without weekends.

No way on earth I'd compromise that if my DH decided to piss off and expect 'a day off'.

I suspect you are the OW.

Sorry worry, I don't think that bit can have been clearly written on my part.

My DP originally would have loved to have the children stay with him on Sunday nights instead of Friday, because that would have given him the chance to spend the whole of Sunday (ie. from getting up to getting them to bed) with him, and therefore, he could have done a good day-trip or similar with them. Them coming on Friday night, and with the DSD having a club which she goes to on Saturday morning- lunchtime (which is great for her and he takes her there each time), means that he can't have that flexibility in planning a weekend with them, when they have to be ready to leave his at 6.30 on the Sunday.

That's all. So not a deal breaker at all, and so not about DP having time to himself, or for me, or as a "day off". The point of this thread is that my DP desperately wants MORE time with the children, not less... And that's why the Friday night and Saturday night arrangement is good news for the children, and my DP. And actually, hopefully for my DP's ex too, long term.

Hope that has clarified and that I've not offended you further.

Well done! Hope it works out for you. I think most mothers find it hard being apart from v young children for too long. It does get easier so hopefully your new arrangement will be good for everyone

So pleased this has a positive outcome. I hope it has set a trend for child-centred agreements between your partners ex and him.

Congrats on the positive outcome so far happy for you lots of love and luck building on this moving forward for all parties concerned :-)