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CSA quandary - advice from all welcome!!

15 replies

csadilemma · 28/02/2006 13:56

have changed name for this - it is long! Would love advice from all sides of the fence.

For 5 years DH has been subject of a punitive interim assessment from the CSA (200 a week) in respect of his 2 kids. Despite countless attempts by us to get CSA to do proper assessment they have delayed delayed delayed - the handling of his case has been amazingly bad. We have had officers at our house on at least 3 occasions, sent details of earnings hundreds of times, filled out countless MEF and it has taken this long to finally get a proper assessment done. Apparently they have a 12 inch file on DH's case!!

In the meantime we have been paying what we can which is a lot less than the IMA. As I am the only one earning money things are very tight - I pay 200 a month maintenance but we have major financial issues and are about 5-800 short a month just for bills (so yes have debt problems). Anyway proper assessment has been done and DH's assessment is nil (no surprise as he has earned only a few thousand gross this year not much more in year's previous). All in all it will turn out that we have overpaid maintenance by 2500 (and it would actually be 3500 if the CSA took account of the voluntary payments DH made for the first 6 months of the application being made but we can no longer be bothered with pursuing this) .

We have been to hell and back with the CSA over this time in lots of ways including reductions in contact (as originally we had boys overnight for over 130 nights a year - now have them about 90 nights as "shared care" arguments came into it). Dh has been threatened with jail, has had 2 liability orders imposed against him totalling almost 30K (despite CSA knowing that the assessment was wrong) and has had to deal with ex telling everyone who will listen how much money he "owes" her (despite knowing that the assessment was never based on his earnings). However, worst of all the kids have been very involved, they have been told time and time again that we do not pay maintenance at all and then, once that little untruth was cleared up, told that we do not pay enough and this has affected them and has obviously had repercussions for DH although he still (miraculously) has strong relationships with them.

We do pay for lots of things towards the kids over and above the costs of having them stay with us - I pay all their mobile phones, half the school lunches, clothes, shoes etc - not that any of this will ever be acknowledged (and nor do I expect to be as I accept kids cost money). I am happy to pay more than this now that the assessment is nil and go halves on all other big costs as and when they arrive (DH used to do this but since she went to CSA ex has told kids she wants to pay for big costs - I have assumed because she was worried it will "reduce" her claim). Our housing costs are much much higher than hers for basically the same type of accommodation (a house in London big enough for 3 kids just like she has) although I understand that she is not interested in this. We don't receive any help from any body other than my child benefit for DD and things are really tight.

Anyway we want this sorted out once and for all. The CSA have told DH that they will pay him the overpayment in a lump sum and then get ex to pay it back to them over a period of time. This is the question - we could say that we don't want the overpayment to let the ex know that we are not interested in being vindictive and try to move forward from here more positively. We are not really interested in CSA chasing her for money for years it isn't helpful to the kids and although we have money problems it is money we never expected to get so we could live without it. And to be fair - its not her fault the assessment was delayed - it was the CSAs so I think it is unreasonable for them to pursue it (not that I ever expect reason from the CSA). But DH is only interested in doing this if he knows that ex will sit down with the kids and tell them the truth which he doesn't think she will do willingly. She has constantly complained that 200 a month is not enough even though that is a lot more than what DH even earns at the moment so I can imagine how angry she will be, but we have been 100% honest. I don't want CSA to go after her an overpayment but I don't want to "write it off" then have her come with another story to the boys about how we have ripped her off. So what do we do? Any advice? Advice from single mothers also very welcome!

OP posts:
NotActuallyAMum · 28/02/2006 14:30

Blimey - what a mess the CSA have made of this Shock I've heard they're a nightmare

Firstly, I think you deserve a big pat on the back for wanting to sort this out amicably - if it was my DPs ex I'd be after her guts for garters!!

Could you, or your DH, speak to his ex and explain what you've been told, tell her what you'd like to do, what you'd like her to do and see what she says? If she's fine about it then you could speak to the CSA and tell them that you've come to an agreement between yourselves. If she throws it back in your face then you can let the CSA carry on with what they're doing. OK it's not her fault they ballsed this up - but it's not your fault either so why should you suffer because of it? You're being more than reasonable about this - I hope your DHs ex can do the same

Caligula · 28/02/2006 14:34

You have no guarantee that the bastards won't chase her for the money even if they don't pay you back.

From her point of view, she'll go to her MP anyway if they ask her for any money back (it's what I'd do, they've made a total balls-up and to be demanding maintenance back from children is on a par with the IR f*k up on tax credits).

csadilemma · 28/02/2006 14:51

Thanks both of you.

Ito be honest caligula I had always thought that they had a discretion and wouldn't ask for the money back. If I knew they wouldn't ask for it back then we would probably take it (hey, its still money and we could use it!) but they have told DH that they are going to chase her for it. We wouldn't write it off if we didn't have it in writing that they would not be chasing her.

I agree that it is morally wrong to go after her for it - Out if interest do you consider the fact that we have been asked to pay way
over the odds until now to be "taking money from children"? In cases like ours where we care for the kids at least 90 nights a year and see them other times more than that I think that argument gets a bit fuzzy!!! As far as I am concerned my wage has 3 kids to support - my DD and my DSKs, with or without maintenance being taken into account!!

DH's initial hothead reaction was to be very tempted to let them go after her for over payment but only because he feels she has tried to ruin his life over this despite the fact that he was paying over the odds in a private arrangement before this ever kicked off and sharing the care 130 plus nights a year.

But if he puts personal anger aside then he also just wants this over and can see why it is a good idea not to accept the overpayment.

But his main concern and the thing I need most advice on is what to do about the kids. I can't stress just how much they have been subjected to hearing all about this for years. I don't agree with them being involved but it wasn't our choice. But now, if we are going to write this money off then I don't think we should do it and still have the kids heads filled with more crap about how bad we are. So in a way I am saying that we can live without the money but there will be strings attached. Myabe this is wrong of me?

In some ways she might prefer that we ask CSA to pay us (and then chase her) as at least then she still has something to complain about? I have learned that it doesn't matter what we do, we are ALWAYS in the wrong. Nothing can change that but it would be nice to try…?

OP posts:
csadilemma · 28/02/2006 14:56

So you can see I am not pretending to be virtuous over this! We do have our own agenda and it is not really about money!!!

OP posts:
csadilemma · 28/02/2006 14:59

But nor are DH or I intersted in more fighting. Dh has made great efforts over past few years to reduce the conflict with his ex wherever he can and the CSA/money issue is the last (and biggest) point of contention...

Just want to all move on with our lives - with both parents paying towards the costs of the kids as equally as possible without bloody CSA butting nose in adn witout this ridiculous " counting" of contact nights (DH insisted that no more mention of shared care be made on his application as he is not interested in that anymore regardless of what is actually happening)

OP posts:
Jen83 · 29/06/2006 20:20

I completeley understand your dilemma. My partner apparently has a debt of over 10,000.00 as his ex wife has denied payments that were made to her. The CSA seems to have no support for fathers (it seems they just disbelieve them). We were living in complete debt as my partner was paying nearly 600 punds a month for his two children whilst his ex wife was living the high life - going out shopping - holidays - home improvements etc and there was nothing we could do about it. It was a catch 22 situation the more he earnt the more he had deducted from him! He ended up going self employed and making a private arrangement with his ex wife (which i am still shell shcoked she went for!). The CSA still claim he owes the money but we have not heard from them for months now.

nicnack2 · 29/06/2006 22:20

surely the interim payment is based on your partner income not yours. Think i would take the money back. you could invest it for the children and then they know you are not 'taking money from them. I have a slight differnt take. ss mother is the absnt parent. dh didnt claim csa until 5 yrs ago when ss was 11 he has not recieved a penny from her until then custody since 3. csa took 3 months to set it up told dh to ask her for the interim payments which didnot happen. ss is now 16(and is moving out to flat another story) he came back from her last friday and she has already contacted the csa to stop payments!

mummy115 · 27/07/2006 16:31

i dare not say what i think of the csa my hubby has been totally screwed over by his ex and the csa.we have no home now coz of them.now they are gonna tag fathers!its a joke.they should tag the incompetent staff that take years to do an assesment.

catemary · 17/08/2006 11:18

Huge sympathy. This kind of thing really me off, been there ourselves, my dh was expected to pay £400 a month for one child but had to threaten a court order just to see his daughter a few times a week. You're a saint, ex wouldn't still be alive if it was up to me....hang on in there, and yes, take the money back, I don't see why you should suffer for someone else's mistakes. You can always make it up to the ex in oter ways, contribute to school uniform, activities etc? to show you're not just being vindictive

IMarriedFatherTed · 17/08/2006 11:22

oh we have had similar problems so HUGE sympathy. seems the people who are honest and do pay get fleeced and then you have the wankers who never pay a penny. its just so annoying. we are in debt too because it took them nearly 3 years to sort out dhs payments. We wont ever see that money again

I jkust can hugely sympathise and dh has NEVER resented paying for his daughter, ever, but the price was astronomical. His wages wasnt even covering our mortgage and the rest of the bills were being paid out of my daughter DLA award

IMarriedFatherTed · 17/08/2006 11:25

and Caligula I know what you mean as it is bloody wrong to go after the mother but they have took it from 'our' children too. Its is THEIR problem though, i agree

catemary · 17/08/2006 11:31

5 suicides attributed to the CSA, say no more. Maybe we'r the lucky ones. My dh's ex threatened to try and have my income assessed as well, I'm self-employed and earn just enouch part time to make it worthwhile after childcare - no help from Inland Rev. there! But as we have joint assets she saw my small amount of cash as rightfully hers.

DVX · 17/08/2006 11:37

As a mother trying to get money I can see it from the other side. I do not want more than he can pay, I just want help bringing up my three kids. The CSA have been uncommunicative and dreadful. He is self employed and therefore ahs hidden all his earnings in things such as dividends which they do not take into acount.

It seems to me that the system is unfair because it does not do anyone any favours and that is true as much for mothers as it is for fathers. Most research points to the fact that women/mothers are always worse off financially following divorce and having been through it I can do no more than agree. My X has paid me £500 which has has apparently been agreed with the CSA for 8 months of child support for three kids. He does not have them overnight. This from a man who used to put over £3,000 per month into our account!

The whole thing is totally unfair it should be sorted in the same way taxes are imo. The inland revenue always seem very good at chasing non payments.

csadilemma · 17/08/2006 11:42

Seeing as this post keeps coming up again I thought an update was in order.

Well, Dh decided to ask for the money back. Firstly because there is no guarantee they wouldn't ask for it back anyway and seocndly because we don't think she will actually have to pay it back - all she needs to do is point out the fact that the delay wasn't her fault and I am sure, given the facts of this case, they won't pursue, thirdly because it is about the principle - CSA are a bunch of a*holes and basically didn't give a sht about us for 5 years of trying to ruin DH's life due to their own incompetence, now we are suddenly expected not to care about it now that it turns out the £30K he "owed" was actually £2K owed to him!! We spent it on something we needed dsperately to pay for at that time.

But since that time even though DH is no longer subject to CSA (she closed case as he is on nil assessment) we have deposited 2K cash back in her account as we sold our house and even though it isn't officially "income" (and we don't have any of the proceeds left now due to debts being paid etc!!) we accept that we have a duty to support the kids when they are with their mum with whatever money is available to us. If we come into more money she will get more lump sums.

Has it made her happy? Has she told the kids ? (for years she has told them that we don't pay her anything!). Unlikely? we are and always will be "BAD"?.

She told DH that CSA have asked for the money - he said to her that?s between you and them - he had to fight his corner with them for years (and eventually won it) now its her turn & while he doesn't want them to chase her for it, it is really her problem to deal with, when they were threatening him with jail she didn't want to know about it. It is galling as it turns out he was paying over twice what CSA assesssment would be (as well as loads of "extras") before she ever went to CSA and she did also get £1K voluntary payment DURING the CSA assesssmnet which she never declared and which we have not asked the CSA to consider so technically it could have been 1K more overpayment, we aren't being petty and I don't think we are being unreasonable (DH also specifically told CSA not to take the nights the kids stay with us into account when doing their assessment!)

If DH had been a different person he might have considered suicide, luckily he is strong and had support and that never happened.

OP posts:
catemary · 17/08/2006 11:48

I think you've been very fair and reasonable, much more than I would've been. You must have very strong relationship to have got through this. Good luck to you all

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