Sigh - things have gone backward with DSS again

[NotaDisneyMum]

DP had the chance to take part in a cycling competition today, leaving me in sole care for DSS for an hour, at the start/finish line, where we looked at the stalls, had a hot chocolate and marshmallows etc.

But, even in that short time, DSS completely ignored a simple request from me (to please wash his hands after using the toilet before we ate) and then deliberately lied to my face, repeatedly, about it He was anxious, uncomfortable and generally twitchy all the while his Dad was out of sight.

We thought we'd managed to get past his lack of respect for me, and things were starting to get better, which is why DP and I thought that just an hour with me would be OK, but clearly not.

I'm starting to think that we will never be able to undo the conditioning that his mum exposed him to (she used to tell him to ignore me and that he was visiting to see his Dad, so he should never be with me on my own). Even though we think she has stopped now, the damage has been done, and I don't think we'll ever function as a single unit - DP will always have to be available to be responsible for DSS, even for short periods of time

So sorry to hear this. I am not experienced enough to offer any advice but didn't like seeing your thread unanswered. Lots of love.

Hi NADM, sorry to hear you had a bad day. I don't think it is true that his dad always has to be there, I think it is an option to just keep going with you doing small stints. If he doesn't follow an instruction, surely he gets a consequence later in the day? So that is his own lookout, he can ignore, but then he loses a privilege.

I have found using sanctions has been very effective here, we have awful times (as you know if you have read my recent threads!) but at least I know 'if you mess me about, there's a consequence'.

Hope you're ok, I know you've worked so hard trying to help him.

Thanks chelen - yes, DP has been brilliant with implementing a consequence for DSS; he has said that all DSS's personal care and hand washing will be supervised by him to ensure it is done; he told DSS that he can't be trusted to act in an age appropriate way, so he won't be treated as such!

The consequence is directly linked to the transgression, which is something I think is really effective - but there are wider issues here again, I think. DSS has admitted that he won't do things that he's asked to do (like wash hands) if he can get away with it - and will do things he knows that he's not supposed to (read other people's mail, for instance) if he thinks he won't get caught,

The act itself doesn't bother him, even though he understands the implications (food poisoning or upsetting someone by invading their privacy) but it's the 'being caught' that is the only deterrent for him.

I don't know if our expectations of him are too high - particularly mine, as DD is abnormally good Is this sort of lack of self control typical of his age? Am I being unreasonable to expect him to display some self-discipline now he's in year 4?

Is it unrealistic to expect an 8 year old boy to wash his hands properly when asked? He knows how to, he's been shown and was supervised for several months/years by DP when he's here, but as soon as he has been trusted to do it on his own when asked, he has admitted he's not bothered to do it unless he's been watched
He got caught this morning because he and DD used the portaloos - he came out first, confirmed when I asked him that he had washed his hands, but then DD came out and said that there wasn't a sink so where could she wash her hands; he still insisted he had washed his (hence repeatedly lying) he only 'confessed' when I asked him to explain how he had dried them!

He's has several bouts of sickness/tummy upsets (now we know why) but he spends a lot of time preparing food in the kitchen with us; I need to know he's washing hands properly, so is it to be expected at his age that we continue to closely supervise his hand washing - and how long for?

And again, what chance have we of success if it's not being reinforced elsewhere?
He's expected to wash his hands independently at school, but i doubt that he does- and there isn't any supervision at his mums house - his grandma who cares for him regularly can't even get up the stairs!

It feels like DP will always have a young boy as a son - just when I thought DSS would begin to become more independent as he gets older, it's become clear that he needs additional supervision to carry out even basic tasks - not because he can't, but because he is choosing not to

What's the word I'm looking for? GAH!

The hand washing isn't A big thing I would make a fuss of tbh just tell him that until he does it he won't be doing any cooking and leave it at that.

Ime yes year 4 boys will behave exactly like that- he is exerting control and choices over the few things in the life that he can and that's fine as long as he accepts the consequences.

I don't think it helps to compare him to dd all the time either as he is probably very aware of the comparison.

smoulder - I know that cooking is important to him, so using it as a consequence is effective, but all the while he is supervised he washes his hands well - but admitted that if DP isn't there, he doesn't bother but tells us that he has.
How can we use the cooking as a motivator/consequence in that situation?

My 8 year old ds will avoid hand washing if he can get away with it. I carry a bottle of hand sanitizer in my bag and make him use that when we are out!
He has also been going through a phase of lying and recently spent a week with no tv for this too.
I think part of it is all normal 8 year old behaviour and it is good that DH backs you up and he sees the consequences!

Notadisneymum, it sounds bad but if I suspect it hasn't happened before dinner or before cooking then I smell his hands and if there's no wash smell then I shrug and there's no cooking.

DP and I had a long chat last night - and we've realised that we would be failing DSS if we avoid situations where I have sole care - he won't be able to learn how to behave appropriately with me if it never happens!

As for the personal care and hand washing, DPs decided to get tough . He's going to set out to DSS exactly what is expected - we know DSS can do it because he does everything perfectly when supervised. DPs going to tell DSS that we'll be doing spot-checks and if he's caught cutting corners there will be a consequence, and if he lies about it, they'll be another consequence for that, as well.

Am I being unreasonable to expect him to display some self-discipline now he's in year 4?

A little bit yes.

Is it unrealistic to expect an 8 year old boy to wash his hands properly when asked? He knows how to, he's been shown and was supervised for several months/years by DP when he's here, but as soon as he has been trusted to do it on his own when asked, he has admitted he's not bothered to do it unless he's been watched

I think thats entirely normal at that age TBH.

You shouldnt take that personally or assume its because hes been told not to lsiten to you.
I read your thread the other day and assumed your DSS was about 12 or something like that! I didnt realise he was so young.

NADM I think it's right to get tough or this could continue for a long time.

I found it interesting the comment you made about DSS potentially staying like a little kid for a long time. This is exactly what we have with DSS1 who is now 16.

We used to have an ongoing saga whereby he wouldn't eat with his knife and fork. Apparently the table was not set at home to include a knife . Yet his brother 4 years younger did it a lot quicker. In fact DSS1 didnt eat with a knife and fork until he was 12 . It used to do my head on quite frankly. Similarly even now with the bed. He doesn't make it off his own back, ever, yet his younger brother manages fine. It's like having a young incoherent child trapped in a young adults body.

So I guess what I'm saying is that I agree you should both try to nip it in the bud, or you might end u where we are. Yes somewhat think typical 8yo, but I think I know well enough from your posts now that you're not over-reacting. In all likelihood if it isn't the hand washing it would be something else, so it's probably symptomatic of something you'd want to sort out rather than ignore.

sound pretty tough - I have a y4 child and he is grubby. SO are all his cub scout friends.

I think you have to pick your battles. Yes, hand hygiene is important if eating, but I always warn that I will do inspection/sniff test. Then send them back to wash again. And again. And again. Untill Im happy.

I think imposing other sanctions is foolish over this misdemeanour - keep sanctions for the big stuff.

Dont confuse little boy silliness for civil disobedience. I think you are overreacting. It sounds pretty boring to stand around for an hour waiting for your dad. No wonder he was twitchy.

I am realising that our expectations of him have been too high - we'll let him be a little boy for a while longer whilst trying to teach him the reasons why we ask him to do things a particular way. I'm relieved that the education system locally has recently changed - until a couple of years ago, DCs of his age moved from primary school and were travelling independently on buses, negotiating regular classroom changes and the like - there's no way that DSS could manage that !!!

It will be a shame not to involve him in food preparation as much because he really enjoys it - but until he understands the importance of hygiene we can't risk it - it's not just part of our family health but my livelihood at stake as well!

It really isn't such a big deal and not aimed at you. Kids will do this sort of thing. He is very young and actually you sound quite negative about him?

UC - there's a lot of back history, which has taken it's toll on my relationship with him - things are so much better than they used to be, and sometimes I lose sight of that .

I think I'm suffering from that typical SM frustration - seeing that DSS is not being supported to reach his full potential and yet not being able to do anything about it because it's not my place to support him

DP is brilliant, but EOW weekend parenting is very difficult unless the styles are relatively similar in both households - if a DC is being babied in one household then it's very hard to make progress towards independence in another.

He is being babied by his mum -she dries and dresses him after swimming, brushes his hair every day, lays his clothes out etc etc - and if DP/my expectations are too high, and his mums are too low, then he is being completely set up to fail.

I guess there is an element of frustration about it too - it never occurred to me that DSS would need the same level of supervision at this age as he did three years ago - and I'm a bit overwhelmed at the thought that he'll always need it!

"He'll never be able to help with food prep again....." Honestly OP, you are being a little hysterical here. This is something he enjoys and its forges a bond with you and its also a way he can get a little independance, so just make him wash his hands in front of you at the kitchen sink, whicle maybe explaining how bugs on his hands might get into the food and make you all sick and vomity (boys love talk of vomit!)

You are being too harsh, and if he is babied at home, you will need to help him be more independant at your home, but not to the point where you impose sanctions....softly softly approach, ease him into it.

Let him be a little boy for a while longer yet. He will start to appreciate the freedoms he has at yours soon - no doubt he goes hme and shouts at his mum that he doesnt need her to brush his hair and at notadisneymums, he's allowed to do it himself AND use knives in the kitchen.

NADM my DSSs' mother has created the same. I think it feeds her own need to be needed, but in doing so, she as created DSS1 the way he is which is effectively a fully dependent child who can do nothing unprompted. And he's 16. He finds it very difficult that we expect him to be able to take public transport on his own for example. To him, a good parent tells him exactly what to do and when to do it. Years and years and years of this sort of parenting creates a high degree of dependency which I don't think can be reversed.

Clearly your DSS is a lot younger. But although I don't like to say it, I saw DSSs problem a long long time ago. It was just that no-one else wanted to acknowledge it or see anything as a potential problem.

He is being babied by his mum -she dries and dresses him after swimming, brushes his hair every day, lays his clothes out etc etc - and if DP/my expectations are too high, and his mums are too low, then he is being completely set up to fail

I think you just need to accept that his mum way of doing things is just different to yours, its not the wrong way and its not the right way-its her way and there isnt anything wrong with it.

Yes he probably should be stepping towards a little personal independance but I think your expectations are too high.

I think I'm suffering from that typical SM frustration - seeing that DSS is not being supported to reach his full potential and yet not being able to do anything about it because it's not my place to support him

Full potential? at 8?

I think you need to relax a bit about all of this.

His mother is different as a parent to you, he is different as a child to your DD, neither are right or wrong.

I don't understand allnew, you say the younger child is capable of doing things his older brother cannot - have you not considered that perhaps the two are different and that the mother's behaviour is irrelevant to it?

I have boys who are 8.5 and almost 5 - my 8 year old needs much more prompting to do things like wash his hands, brush his teeth, put clean underwear on etc than his younger brother, and frankly my 2.5 year old DD has better cutlery skills than DS1. They have all been brought up and treated the same and the same expected of them, the difference is in their own personalities and abilities and DS1 just happens to be terminally disorganised/forgetful and cares very little for personal hygiene and social niceties.

I agree with AmberLeaf's post of 10:36 tbh.

Although a parent can exert the same parenting style on 2 children, childrens' personalities are such that as human beings, they will react and evolve in their own way.

So for example, their mother chose not to teach them to eat with a knife and fork. We saw it as important that they should learn (for example watching a 12 year old eating a large boiled potato like a lollipop on a stick we found unacceptable). So over the years, we tried to encourage the two of them to use a knife and fork to eat. With DSS2, he was reasonably quick to do so. DSS2, despite his mother's babying, tends to have "his own mind" and is so is more open to development from other sources. With DSS1, he, due to his mother's control and babying over the years, has, to my mind, become reluctant to develop in the ways one would expect for a teenager. Don't get me wrong, DSS2 still has problems, but his way of dealing with things is such that he has developed in a different way.

Similar to the bed-making. Their mother makes their beds for them (yes at 16 and 12). DSS 2 realises that in our house, this isn't acceptable, and so makes his own bed every other weekend. Actually I think he sees this as a more normal situation than he has at home. But DSS1 likes to be 'babied' and so prefers to act in a dependent fashion.

I've actually read up on this a lot. DSS1 has a very passive personality. He has soaked in his mother's method of parenting, and has come to expect it. In fact it makes life easier for him. He doesn't need to do anything himself, including thinking to a large extent. At 16 he will literally not know what to do with himself if an adult isn't providing him with something to do, constantly. His mother loves this, because it feeds her need to be needed by him. She would imo struggle if he were to grow independent in any way (she shows very strong signs of NPD and is extremely controlling). DSS2 however has more of an enquiring mind. He is showing signs of frustration with his mother doing/deciding everything. I think she will encounter problems with him over the coming years.

I agree with the decision that you and DP have made, that avoiding 121 with you and DSS would be a mistake. IME, the only way to get a situation like this to change is to spend time together and work on it. It will be tough but it will improve i time.

DSD was told by her Mum that I was nothing to do with her and that my DDs (and DS who was on the way) were not her real siblings. She was very hurt, confused and conflicted. DH and I made sure that I spent plenty of time with her and eventually it resolved itself. DSD and I are now as close as I am with 'my' DDs. We do have joint residency which helps, but EOW will still be ok, it might just take longer. Best of luck.

That was my point though allnew. I do expect my children to use cutlery, have taught them to use it, and DS2 and DD use it reasonably well for their ages. DS1 doesn't. As part of toilet training I taught them to flush the toilet and wash their hands. DS2 and DD (literally just trained) manage this, DS1 doesn't. Same for teeth brushing, clean underwear, basic household tasks I expect from them, DS2 and DD are both far more reliable at doing this unprompted than DS1 despite his age. DS2 and DD can easily entertain themselves, DS1 struggles quite a bit. Some children are naturally like that and parenting and guidance can only improve it within a set spectrum.

But that's completely different from the case in hand in the thread, whereby the mother does baby the child.

Of course children naturally develop differently, they're human beings. In my posts I was specific in talking about a set of circumstances whereby the mother is setting out to obstruct natural development.

I originally responded to your first post which said your elder SS was unable to do certain things your younger SS did, and blamed this on their mother. I was trying to say that perhaps those differences would be apparent regardless of her treatment of them - in fact perhaps her "babying" of them as you put it is in fact a (misguided) reaction to the older child not being able to manage certain tasks when he was younger. It's a trap I find it very hard to avoid falling into with my eldest, the balance between helping him complete tasks he struggles with/reminding him to do them and actually doing them for him. I also have to ensure that I don't reduce my expectations of the younger two based on DS1's lower ability, it would have been very easy to think that my expectations of him were in fact too high and reduce them accordingly for the younger children iyswim. I am not saying that is the case in either yours or the OP's case, I am just saying it's not necessarily as simple as wanting to baby a child.