I'm irrelevant to DSS

[Imanonperson]

I don't know whether this is a problem or not - I don't even know if I am as bothered as I think I ought to be, but basically DSS(6) can get through most of a contact weekend (or even holiday) with the barest of acknowledgements that I exist, and that's only if DH presses him to answer a question or be polite.

I'm not overly effusive with DSS as I sense that would make him feel uncomfortable but I do make sure he feels welcome at our place and fully part of the family (two other DC at home). DH is really supportive and does pick up when there is blatant rudeness, but that's pretty rare - I'm normally just ignored eg he will run straight past me in the hall and not make eye contact, has to be told to say goodnight to me, ask DH for a drink when DH is busy and I'm free and happy to do it.

DSS used to play really nicely with the other DC (one step, one half) but is leaning ever further towards just wanting to spend time with his dad and the other DC are picking up on it. Obviously it's difficult for him being between two homes but, because of circumstances, he actually has quite a lot more one-on-one time with his dad than the other DC so we can't deal with any insecurity by giving him even more time and attention. (I do try chatting with him, doing activities etc but it is clear he is only answering/joining in because he knows he has to and is just going through the motions - slightly soul-destroying for me tbh).

Has anyone else experienced this as a phase? Any tips on dealing with it? There doesn't seem to be any actual bad feeling on his part so I don't know if we should challenge it or not.

I think it's probably shyness and a "boy" thing. My DSS is like this with me and my DS is like that with other people too and I suspect his Dad's partner too.

What is the relationship like between your DP and his ex and you and his ex? Do you think there is any bad mouthing going on in your direction from the ex? If there is, it's going to have an impact.

If you don't think bad mouthing is an issue, perhaps you have to try and get DP to get out of the way and force the situation a bit? So he has to ask you for a drink or find something for him to do that will require you to help him for example?

I don't think it's shyness, as it seems to have increased over the last year - like he just can't be bothered any more or has decided that I'm not interesting enough to acknowledge! I have been in his life for four years and he has been part of our home for every holiday and every other weekend so it's not like he doesn't know me. I am usually the one who is up first with all the kids so I do breakfast etc and at those times he is just scrupulously polite (painfully so) but just only comes to life when his dad appears.

Bad-mouthing may be the case. DH's ex resents me enormously because I get to spend time with 'her' child and am generally very happy with my life and family whereas she is still very bitter about everything. (I was not the OW, if that makes a difference, but I suspect that in her head it is my fault she didn't get back together with DH). Anything I can do about that though? If it is happening, it's not going to stop any time soon - the ex doesn't do 'moving on with her life'!

In my case it was badmouthing/alienation by DSS mum that led to this situation - DSS could spend whole weekends not speaking or even making eye contact - including one memorable hour in a swimming pool playing family pool games which is an impressive achievement in a sad kind of way

He was so very scared of getting into trouble with his mum for even thinking that he liked me that he Developed anxiety related medical conditions.

DP arranged youth counselling for him - which was a battle because his ex (obviously) wouldn't agree - he got the school and GP involved and eventually DSS was referred. It isn't a solution - he needs regular top-up sessions; and we've come to recognise that the cost of a positive weekend or family holiday is a setback for a month or two afterwards when DSS withdraws from me again

I'm hoping that things will get better as DSS gets older - he's 8 now, ^so maybe as he matures he'll be less worried about his mums opinion?

Like NADM's situation DSS used to be like this and it absolutely was the ex encouraging DSS to dislike me. It was initially subtle but became very much more open and hostile. At this point we had to deal with it.
So alienation could be a factor - the excessive politeness rings bells for me.

Another factor could be the boy/dad thing which my dc has. He seems completely hardwired to want to be around his dad or other boys. It seems like it's man training:) In my ds's case it's noticeable i.e he will mostly ignore females IF there is a boy or his dad around therefore you know it's not personal.

I think you and your dp need to sit back and analyse your dss's behaviour then compare notes after the weekend. If it's alienation act now as it does not get better with time, it only gets worse and needs intervention.

Hmmm... it's very easy to blame the ex but if what the ex says doesn't tally with what the child sees it's not going to work and make the ex look stupid.

Turning around the examples you've giving: make a point of you going to your DSS and saying good night, say "dad's busy I can get you a drink what would you like?" and counter intutive giving that these visits are meant to be for DS to see his dad, you have some one on one time with DSS, ideally out and about without DH (so he has no choice but the talk to you)

Sorry that sounded very harsh. let me explain. I know exH bad mouths DP, has done from the start. Doesn't affect DD unless at that time DD's relationship with DP is in need of a little work. So we put the work in and it goes back to Daddy being a bit silly.

I sometimes moan about exH new partner. DD never listened, until she stopped showing interest in her. Actually she still says she likes her but I can see that there's issues

Step families are tough

lunar while I agree that in some cases badmouthing and negativity has little discernible effect on DC's, I don't think it is ever appropriate to moan about a step parent to a child in any situation - it is totally avoidable and unnecessary.

It sounds like there are problems in your DD's relationship with her SM. Why do you think that might be? Your DD may not have openly acknowledged your moaning about her SM, and you may think that she wasn't listening, but you are the most important person in your DD life - why wouldn't she take notice of your opinion and try and please you?

The concept of parental alienation is very well documented and researched.

A child who is told repeatedly that it upsets their mummy when they spend time and have fun with daddy and SM is at the very least going to feel conflicted and unhappy

My DSC were told by their mum do not speak to NADM or her DD, you're not going to visit them, you are there to see your dad because I have to send you. In that one sentence, they were condemned to a situation where they were uncomfortable speaking to me, and their relationship with their Dad was reduced to something enforced on their mum. Hardly a recipe for building the foundations of a solid relationship.

make a point of you going to your DSS and saying good night, say "dad's busy I can get you a drink what would you like?

This significantly added to my DSS anxiety, though - by doing this, I forced him into a situation that he genuinely believed that he would get into trouble for. I was reinforcing the perception that his mother had given him that I was a problem for him, as if I left him alone, then he wouldn't get into trouble.

Counselling and family support is helping in our situation - along with self-help materials from the USA where the courts now recognise alienation as a form of child abuse. I would recommend the book Divorce Poison by Dr Richard Warshak and his self-help video, Come Back Pluto, which presents the stark reality of the damage to DC's, favoured and alienated parents in the long term of this type of abuse.

To be honest what you describing just sounds like playground silliness! But I know that if you stop talking to a child whatever the reason they're not going to like you very much and if Mum is badmouthing you it plays straight into their hands

Try the phrase "I love you (or even I love your Dad and therefore I want to love you too) and even if you don't talk to me, I'll be there for you". And keep talking to the child. You treat it as nothing serious and a bit silly, the child will too.

Frankly DD has been through being told and seen far worse, she knows her Dad sometimes says silly things, doesn't stop her loving him or me for that matter.

To be honest what you describing just sounds like playground silliness!

We'll have to agree to disagree - when you have shared your life with damaged and distressed children as I am, it is anything but "playground silliness" and I find that description quite offensive to be honest

DD's relationship with her stepmother has deteriorated since SM is usually busy somewhere else when DD goes to visit.... but thank you for assuming what I've said has anything to do with it.

Incidentally by default I'm not the most important person in my Daughter's life. She has two parents. It's the actions of both parents that determine their importance in her life.

You treat it as nothing serious and a bit silly, the child will too.

My DSS is physically ill through the anxiety caused by the conflict he feels when he visits us.

When DSS enjoys his time here, he knows that his mum will be cross/upset/sad and remembers that has told him not to join in/speak/ask for help - should I treat his illness as "silly" and ignore it?

Not talking about treating DS' feelings as silly, but the idea that he should not speak/join in/ask for help is silly and even a child can see this with a little help. There is a difference.

As I said the attitude of BOTH/ALL parents that makes the difference.

Besides which there's no reason to assume alienation is the case in the OP, my point is that it's easy to assume alienation (blame the ex) when all that's required is a little work on the "step" relationship.

Nothing wrong with that at all. Raising kids is tough, raising children you are not biologically linked to is both doubly tough and admirable

lunar as I said, we'll have to agree to disagree.
Your suggestion that one parent dismisses the others comments to a DC as silly is contrary to all the professional advice that is given in these situations - I would hate to think it is considered a suitable response by stepparents who might find themselves in this situation.

oh dear I think I haven't explained myself very well.

We can all get upset and make a big fuss about nasty things an ex has or hasn't said. It's not going to change the fact that all of you will have a relationship with the child. sometimes by minimising the impact and importance it has on you, being in charge of your reaction, you can minimise the impact it has to the child also.

This is really important for those of us who can't stop our exs saying hurtful things to our children about us

Bollocks to it... I would hate to think a suitable response to normal difficulties of raising step children is to blame the ex and spout Parental Alienation syndrome (which the science community is till not even sure exists).

Packing the child off to counselling seems a massive overreaction

I have to agree with NADM & SMum99. While I do think its a 'boy thing' my dss is now an adult (hes 22) & he admitted to me & his dad in his late teens that his mum had actively discouraged him from talking to me & my family. She had gone so far as to tell him not to talk to my family as 'they aren't nice people like our family'. He gets on fine with them now & our relationship is brilliant but it did take 12 years and the birth of his little brother to get there.

I never tried to be another mum but I went out of my way to do things for him & make sure that he never felt 'pushed out'. The problem was that he was very influenced by his mum & her attitude to me. I was ok to look after him for whole days during school hols while she went to work, but it was made very clear that I wasn't welcome at his birthday parties (which HAD to be organised jointly by her & dp) or his school plays etc (which HAD to be attended by her & dp together). I never complained & just smiled sweetly although i did spit my dummy out when she expected dp to be at her house at 8am on Christmas morning after ds was born (dss was 14 btw & just wanted to stay in bed until Christmas dinner was on the table).

To the OP I think the best you can do is just carry on as you have been - you sound like you are doing all the 'right' things for your dss. I would expect that as he gets a bit older he will make up his own mind about you. However as Smum99 said I would talk to your dp about your concerns & maybe he can talk to dss & see if he can get to the bottom of this. It may be that he just wants to be with his dad at the moment - my ds is 9 now & is so much more of a dad's boy than he was when he was younger.

Good luck I hope it all works out for you.

lunar but we're not talking about normal difficulties - we're talking about very young DCs who are displaying physical signs of anxiety and stress.

It's not normal for a young DC to actively avoid eye contact with a care giver, to avoid asking for their basic needs to be met by that same care giver, to withhold displaying positive emotion in their company.

If you have found a way to avoid this situation despite criticism by each parent of the other then you have my admiration. For some of us, providing those DCs with professional support to deal with the situation has been necessary and recommended.

When an 8 year old boy is diagnosed with anxiety and stress which is causing chronic stomach problems, counselling seems an appropriate treatment. An alternative is to insist that the Dr is wrong, decide that it is food intolerance causing the symptoms and subject the child to invasive tests. Which would you do?

.....and counselling can benefit ALL children in any situation - why so negative about it?

Lunar, Just to back up the earlier comments - some of us have direct experience of an ex actively encouraging a child not to speak to the step parent and to be hostile. We only discovered it when dss broke down and 'confessed' to what he had been doing. He was being actively coached by his mum to do it and to report back on progress. It was far from playground silliness and it have taken all of us a long time to recover.

Our lack of awareness (& naivety that a mum would do this) allowed the issue to continue for longer than it should. As a result I believe it's important that the issue is raised as it's emotionally abusive to the child. The op mentioned scenarios very similar to my experience so it is worthwhile highlighting the possibility. If it is parental alienation then counselling is needed as the child has been placed in a situation where they are doing something that pleases mum but at the same time they also feel guilty and 'bad' for being horrible to someone they do care about.

If the op has information on a range of causes then they have knowledge and that will help them determine what's the likely cause. I actually hope it isn't alienation as it's a tough issue to fix.

I have to say that it is not true that children will "see through" their parent badmouthing stepparents and even their other parent.
Parental alienation is hugely common and it is not as simple playground silliness or one parent openly saying horrid things about the other parent in such a way that a child could see that it was untrue.
Even if it was blatent, there is a complex emotional reaction to such abuse whereby the child could feel that they have to "please" the parent they feel like they could least cope without - this will usually be the RP but could also be the parent who is the same sex as them maybe, or any other reason.
It could also be the parent who they feel has been most "wronged" by the break up, or who is more of the victim - this could be based on facts or months/ years of subtle comments and using the child as an emotional prop.

My DSD has been the victim of parental alienation, even before the divorce. DP had no idea what was happening while he was married but can now see what was happening. His ex wife would constantly undermine him, encourage his DD to have secrets from him (for example she would take her out on shopping sprees and then make her lie to him about the money they had spent because he was "tight" this is an opinion of DSD's on her dad even 7/8 years down the line and is completely untrue) once she even took his toothbrush and got DSD (at about 8) to wipe it around the inside of the toilet because he was irratating her.
DSD paints an entirely different picture of her Dad's involment with her childhood than I know for an absolute fact to be true. She also paints her Mum as a saint who has sacrificed all for her daughter. Not true and very alarming.
The worst thing is that it is all so subtle... how do you explain to someone that it is wrong to regularly listen in to their child's conversations with their other parent..? It sounds mad, right? But over time it creates any number of negative impressions on the child and the relationship they have with their other parent.
I wish that DP had known what signs to look out for years ago as his DD is now so distanced from him that it's only a matter of time before she estranges herself completely. And as for me... DSD started off our relationship as an open, confident and affectionate happy child. very soon I noticed that she wouldn't show me any affection and could actually bearly look at me if her Mum was in the room.. I have no evidence of anything her Mum had said to make it that way... but how else would DSD have it in her head that it was only behind her Mum's back that she was allowed to get on with me?
I've gone off on a bit of a rant as one of the posts about playground silliness hit a nerve with me - but OP - I would reccommend reading up on parental Alienation. It might not be happening to your step child - but if it is, you need to be armed with the information and so does your partner.

"DD's relationship with her stepmother has deteriorated since SM is usually busy somewhere else when DD goes to visit.... but thank you for assuming what I've said has anything to do with it" that may be the case where you are concerned Lunar

This is exactly what DSD's mum says but in reality (and I am not saying it is reality for you) I have made a conscious decision to be out most of the time when DSD is around because I want her to have the best chance and salvaging some kind of relationship with her Dad despite her mother's best attempts and screwing it in to the ground and if that means me being out of the picture so she doesn't feel she is being disloyal to her Mum when she enjoys her visits then so be it. Also, she is really rather nasty most of the time and I have better things to do than spend mine and my DD's precious time together as witness to it.
But rather than be thanks for putting the child first, I am victimised for "being cold" and "neglectful" - ironic really as when i was around a lot I was "overstepping" go figure. I'm still accepted though when it's to cook, clean, babysit and taxi drive.

Wow... sorry to have upset so many of you.

I'm afraid I did come into this with an alternate opinion. I still say there nothing to suggest PAS is occurring in the OP. And yes I do believe there are ways of working on a relationship regardless of what else may be going on.

Please don't project you're own experiences onto me, I'm sure in your cases you're all the most perfect stepmums and it is all the mothers fault. But funnily enough not all us mothers hate stepmums.

lunar You have admitted that you moan about your exH new partner within your DD's hearing......and you have downplayed and defended the damage done by mothers who do this.

It is very unlikely that you are going to find support for your casual dismissal of the possibility that DC's can be damaged by this type of behaviour from SM's who are devoting a great deal of emotion and time into undoing it.

Just stop. If my choice of words was poor, I can only apologise.

But I will say I've offered an alternative perspective. I've offered an alternative way of dealing with the cooling of a relationship that puts the relationship between the step parent and child at the centre. I would very much hope that that option was explored before the PAS lynch mob goes out for the child's mother.

Given that you asked me whether I would except a diagnosis of anxiety/PAS or explored allergy tested first, I would have a child allergy tested. It's not invasive (DS has had it done) and I would want to explore all possible physical causes of chonic stomach before I sought a far more problematic diagnosis of PAS. Again this is simply a difference of opinion and approach.

Again please do not project your own experiences on me, if certainly never badmouthed my xH new partner, and would hope that most people could understand the difference. In offering an opinion I never expected to find myself subject to a hail of abuse.

Of course my perspective is different from yours. I am not a stepmother, but my children have a step mother and a step father.

I know you believe you are doing the right thing by backing out of your stepchild's visits with her father. I really don't. If her mother is bad mouthing you, your reluctance to spend time with her justifies what the mother is saying. If she isn't the stepchild's sense of rejection will be palatable and disliked by both the child and her mother. That's simply a difference of opinion that can only be validated by outcome.

The biggest thing that makes a difference to kids is knowing their parents (step or otherwise) will be there for them whatever.