Your thoughts on this please

[asfarasiknow]

I'm not necessarily looking for advice - more of a "where will this all end" thread really. I just find the situation so ridiculous that it would be good to get other peoples' views on it.

DSS is 16. His mother is extremely controlling. Access has always been strictly as per the schedule agreed by the court 9 years ago. Even 5 mins variation from the scheduled drop-off causes friction. Her control extends also to other areas of his life - choosing hobbies, subjects at school etc etc.

A combination of this control and he personality (which is to accept rather than to "rebel") means that he doesn't question or object to anything she says. So he does't see it as his right to make decisions himself. Actually I think that he's the type of person thats actually most comfortable when someone else is making the decisions. For example he doesn't do anything off his own back at the weekends and just expects dad to decide the weekend's events and activities. Any attempt by DH to get him to think for himself has fallen on deaf ears.

So DSS recently did very well in his exams and DH asked if he wanted to go out with him one evening in the week for a meal and to choose something as a gift. DSS has apparently "asked" his mother if he is allowed to do this. She has said "no".

This is not healthy - right? How do "children" who are treated/act in this way turn out? He is not the type to rebel, so it won't be that route. She has already decided he is living with her througout university. So uni for him will just be a continuation of school.

My situation is practically identical to yours, and it causes me enormous frustration. I've no idea how kids like this turn out, my DSS (17) has been infantilzed to the point that Real LIfe (if he ever gets there) is going to be a huge shock.

His mum said he wasn't "allowed" to go out with his dad for a meal to celebrate doing well in his exams???? No that isn't healthy at all. Poor boy. Was the suggested time during "her" time? It sounds as though he's scared to make a decision for himself. for him and .

I don't really know what to say, except for your DH and you not to give up. Have you had big rows with his mum about this?

In the past there were rows about access but not any more. In the past, DH had assumed that his DS would start to become more assertive as he got older, but it hasn't happened.

As to whether the time suggested was in "her" time. According to the court order it would have been, but that order has now officially expired as he is 16. She still sees it has "her" time though and so does DSS.

It's surely emotional abuse.

It sounds like very controlling and unpleasant behaviour, which can only damage DSS in the end. Very sad. I guess all you can do is work on DSS's assertiveness when he's with you.

I'm not sure what will happen to young adults who have grown up with controlling parents but it isn't healthy and I suspect they will have similar relationships later in life. He is used to not having his needs or wants being fulfilled, his mother is the dominant force in the house and her needs have priority.

DH had an extremely controlling and bullying mum and married DSS's mum when he was young. She is a similar type so he finally (after counselling) recognised the pattern. It did however take him until he was 30 before he could break free.

DSS is younger but similar, mum controls his interactions with DH and DSS feels uncomfortable expressing his needs.

It is very sad, your dss can't develop if he isn't allowed to make decisions on his own. Outwardly your DSS appears to be doing well (at least academically) yet his emotional intelligence will be low and this does impact adults later in life. .

Why would a sane, reasonable, caring mum block contact with a dad???

We encourage DSS to question his parents, not impolitely but I think it's fair that parents to 16 year olds start to explain their rationale for decisions.
An example we have is: DSS isn't allowed to have friends at our house, initially his mum just said No, when DSS questioned she said it was "rude to ask friends to DH's house!!" we encouraged him to ask why his mum considered it rude..No answer to that but I think the fact that he asked was positive and it's about small, tiny steps.
I think your DSS needs to develop a mantra of "why?" to all the No's

Why doesn't your DH just take him out for a meal and buy him something nice when he has him anyway?

Yes, at 16 he ought to be old enough to be deciding for himself who he sees in the evenings - would have thought he should be able to have a meal out with friends or with his dad, without his mum raising objection unless the day suggested actually clashed with something else. Did she give a reason, or is it all to do with ownership of DSS?

purpleroses he can do those things with him when he has him, but DH is trying to introduce DSS to the realisation that at 16, that at this age there doesn't need to be a strict definition of "her" time or "his" time. I mean, if she can decide where he does/doesn't go at age 16, when would she see this changing. I really doubt she'd allow him any more freedom at 18 for example. Yet for DH to be restricted to being able to do anything with his own son every other calendar fortnight weekend would seem truly bizarre at that age. If DH sees his mum's word as gospel now, why would that change at 18? He will still be living with her then, as now.

Smum - you've hit the nail on the head. He has very undeveloped "emotional intelligence". I guess I've come across the occasional adult like this and it doesn't appear a great prospect for DSS to become one. Yet I really doubt that this is likely to change now much at his age.

Unfortunately he doesn't ask the "why" question. Similarly though it doesn't seem to occur to him that she doesn't actually have any authority over whether he goes somewhere or not. That he can actually make choices she doesn't like. She is an aggressive bully though, so I guess it's not that easy.

sorry purpleroses as to the question did she give a reason - no, she doesn't. But given that he doesn't ask or question her, she doesn't have to give a reason. He actually therefore makes it very very easy for her to exert her control unchallenged.

My DSC are like this, we recently had a situation where DSD aged nearly 16 was ready to come to our house, DP was waiting outside in the car and her mum made her sit in the house for another half an hour twiddling her thumbs because DP was ten minutes earlier than the time she had "told" DP to arrive (he had just dropped DSD4 off at a club 3 doors from her house, and we live 20 mins round trip away!). DSD just text her Dad and said "Mum says I have to wait here". There is no questionning her Mum at all.

All my DSD are like this, no opinion on anything, no passion for anything unless their Mum suggest it.

It's the Mums way of trying to control your DP and she is doing it through your DSS (probably without meaning to). I doubt your DSS will question her control until he has left home.

I was a very compliant teenager (and an only child who wasn't used to arguing with siblings) and it took me many years to learn to fight my own battles, I would avoid confrontation often causing myself many more problems in the process. I suspect this is what your DSS will be like.

redhen that's a very good example of DSS's mothers type of behaviour. The making your DH sit in the car thing. You couldn't make it up.

It's very shortsighted of a parent to act in this way. Why on earth would you want an adult child unable to have a single independent thought?

I was a very non-compliant child, so I find it really difficult to understand!

I fear that this will be the case for my stepchildren when they grow up.
Their mum sticks rigidly to the contract and is so so controlling.
DP is like your DH. He went from living with his domineering (but nice) Mum to domineering control freak wife and he's finally ended up with me. I have no desire to control him and he can't believe his luck!!
but he is still having to learn now at 42 to make his own decisions and not to expect me to tell him what to do all the time and he let's his own kids walk all over him still.
I hope to God that They don't end up like your DSS but I won't be at all surprised if they do.

Sticking rigidly to a contract isn't controlling AT ALL. It's the opposite of controlling. It is completely necessary in fact.

Why necessary Swed? DH now hasn't been "allowed" to see his son at all during the week of his birthday. Necessary

It is completely necessary to stick to the the arrangement to the letter. Controlling is the person who seeks to alter the arrangement to his/convenience. It shows no respect for the other parent; you are trampling all over her.

The boy is 16, surely your DP/DH can call his son and wish him happy birthday ion his birthday and then celebrate when he sees him. I it will probably be nice for the boy to celebrate the birthday AGAIN a week later.

It's extremely upsetting for children, especially teenagers, to see thier parents, and step parents, making a giant fuss about what is really nonsense. Teen life is stressful enough. Step back from the feud. Stick to the arrangement. I promise you will all find all parties are able to be a lot more considerate to one another.

Swed I honestly think you are talking a load of nonsense.

As for arrangements - what "arrangements". A court order set into place by a stranger a decade ago when the child was 7?

What is "considerate" about treating a 16yo as a possession?

fwiw OP I sympathise - I am in a very similar position!

Well the schedule agreed by the court 9 years ago is still in force. If you want to change things go through the proper channels. You can't just unilaterally change a court order because you fancy a chinese takeaway as a celebration.

"Well the schedule agreed by the court 9 years ago is still in force"

Not for a 16yo it's not. It legally expires on 16th birthday actually. What "proper" channels . Court orders for "access" are not granted for 16 year olds.

allnewtakenew - Are you the mother of a 16 year old son with a controlling father who likes to change arrangements to suit himself?

No - but the OP wasn't talking about a controlling father who likes to change arrangements to suit himself. The OP was specifically referring to a one-off special treat for the benefit of the 16yo.

BTW - arrangements for a 16yo should be determined by the 16yo, not his mother or father.

allnewtaketwo - Perhaps you should read the OP again. The OP talks about the lack of determination of the son.

Anyway, it's not unusual for 18 year olds to simply not want to go to father's house much any more at that age. They want to live their own lives and see their mates, perhaps he is using his mother as an excuse for not going for a pizza with his dad on his birthday. Rather than admitting he just didn't want to. Teenage boys avoid conflict like that.

He probably doesn't want to go for a pizza with his mum on his birthday either.

I meant 16 year olds

On reading the op it appears that the 16yo is exhibiting the behaviour of someone who is so used to being repressed that he has no sense of identity. This is a very common characteristic of someone who is being emotionally abused.

To answer op's question about how children like this turn out as adults - I can tell you they don't change. My adult DSC are still completely dependant on their mother and seem unable to think for themselves, despite being in their mid-twenties. Neither of them has ever had a relationship or much of a social life.

You are right to be questioning the level of control that your SS's mother has, as it's a very unhealthy situation for a 16 year old to be in.

I like to think of this as - what would the reaction be if the child wanted to go and see a friend on a particular day? In most cases, I suspect, not a problem at all! We have this with DH's ex. So DSC will say yeah I'd like to come round on Wednesday. then goes back home. Then emails/texts to say actually, after discussing it with mum, has "remembered" that they are doing something that night. e.g. doing the grocery shopping and he must go with her. I suspect if he asked his mum if he could go and see a mate that night, that would be fine! However, if it's to and spend a couple of hours at dad's (literally a ten minute walk away) that's NOT ALLOWED. He's almost 18 by the way.....