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[BOMbastic]

Hi all, it's BOM - waves

So a couple of days ago DH had a text message from DSD saying "Mum has booked for us to go to a hotel the weekend after this in Brighton and she said I can bring best friend. I'm supposed to be with you guys but is it okay?"

So he texts her Mum and says something along the lines of "Seeing as I hardly ever see DD now the time we spend is more precious than ever and I don't want you to organise things during my time with her. If there is a special occassion that is unmissable can you please ask me yourself directly first rather than involve DD and I am now going to be the bad guy when I say no"

She's says "oh FFS, can she come or not!?"

He says "not"

So then DSD calls him ranting and raving about how all he wants to do is spoil her fun and she is going whether he likes it or not blah blah blah.

I am so angry - not purely about what her Mum has done, I have come to expect such classic alientating behaviour. But I am furious that she has involved DSD like this. She must have been nervous to ask her Dad and have known it would upset him. By getting her to ask it is giving her all the power again (at 12!) her stomach must be in knots constantly. Why can't her mother be woman enough to ask DH herself?? Saying DSD could take the friend is the most manipulative thing about it all as well.

It also means I have to explain to my DD why she isn't going to see her sister for 4 weeks - She's going to be devastated.

Grrr!!!

For those following my story (NADM in particular as she reccommended it) DH and DSD are watching "Come back Pluto" tonight while I am out with my Mum for the evening. It's taken a lot of me leaving it lying about the house for DH to pick it up and put it by the TV, he has also said that they will watch it which is more of a commitment than I have had before. I hope it works!!!!

Ah it's so difficult BOM I feel for you I really do. My DSS 12 came round last weekend saying he was going on holiday over xmas and said along the lines of that means you're not going to see me. Do you want to see me at christmas? It was the first my DH had heard of it.

I don't understand why the mother seems to think it is acceptable to get the child excited about things before telling the father when it infringes on their time with their child. Because like you say then the father gets the wrath of the child when it's not ok. Putting the child and the father in a difficult situation and like you say almost giving them the power over their fathers choice.

You're damned if you do and you're damned if you don't. If you say yes it will upset your DH and you're DD but will potentially make your DSD happy and the same time if you say no if your DSD is angry she may not want to come to see her dad anyway making 3 people unhappy (plus you having to be in an uncomfortable situation) I'm glad your Dh stood up for himself and didn't just say it was ok because it will happen more and more often.

Is there a way that your DSD could come for tea or over for a night in the week or you all go out for a pizza or something so that your DH gets to see her?

Lots and lots of sympathy here BOM. We've had it like this for years (10 to be precise). Tbh, we came to the conclusion that we had more to lose from being the bad guys and so have tended to give in for the sake of a happy life with our DSDs. As it happens it didn't work because DH and DSD (14 and eldest) had a barny 5 months ago (the one and only barny they have ever had) and she's still refusing to see him or talk to him. This was because my DH took a stand against a particular exhibition of attitude that would not be condoned in our house. No big deal, we thought. Wrong. And her mother refuses to help resolve the issues.

Rather than be in our situation i suggest you allow her to go. The non resident parents are always wrong and the resident ones are always right. You will lose the battle and it's not worth losing your DSD over. I wish we could turn back time

Well, SD isn't allowed to stay over in the week as her mother is scared she'll lose CSA money. Her mother would let her come round for tea but there has been so much water under the bridge that DSD is now convinced that she doesnt need or want a relationship with her Dad... so I doubt she'd agree.

I'm sorry you have the same with your stepkids, it's really horrible. I torn between feeling sorry for DSD, and being angry with her.

I get what youre saying Matana, the only problem is that we are scare dthat if DH just says yes everytime then he is giving his DSD the message that he doesn't care enough to fight it. We're kind of hoping that although she hates him now, when she looks back she will realise he only did it because he cared.

Her mother is a narcisist and at some point everything will come crshing down in the relationship between her and DSD - DH's biggest fear is that when that happens, him and his DD will be so distanced from one another that she will have no one.

But I know what you're saying, in his efforts to do the right thing he may be doing the wrong... but who's to know. If only highinsight (sp?) was kinder to us hey?

hindsight (I knew it was in my brain somewhere )

At that age I used to loathe the visits to my dad as it meant I missed out on seeing friends and doing fun stuff with them.

I get so angry about stuff like this. The NRP is placed in an impossible position and the child(ren) learns nothing about consideration for others/honouring commitments and so on. Instead, the message the RP is giving them is that what they want trumps everything else.

It's bloody gameplaying. Any normal, courteous person would discuss an event or activity which crops up on the other parent's time beforehand and they certainly wouldn't be booking anything and/or telling the child until the NRP had agreed to swap about. My ex and me managed to do just that for 14 years and as neither of us used our son as a weapon or deliberately tried to score points off each other, it was extremely rare indeed that either of us refused to change things around ..... the only times it might be difficult would be if the parent who had our son that weekend - or thought they were going to - had already booked tickets or something. And then, the other parent would be understanding and respectful of that.

To just tell an NRP that their contact time won't be happening is totally rude and dismissive. By stirring up the child as well and getting them all excited without getting their okay first, it's also conveying to them that time with dad (usually) is disposable and not very important. But then if your ex is anything like ours that was probably exactly the effect she was aiming for. We've had this countless times over the years and it's almost impossible to counter. DP's ex did this on one occasion even when she knew expensive tickets for a London attraction had been booked for a special family occasion. Obviously she couldn't bear the idea of the kids enjoying a special time with their dad and concocted - long after the booking - an alternative activity to tempt them instead. When DP has tried to speak to the kids about it, saying he was looking forward to seeing them etc he then gets the whole "but I want to be with mummy cos she'll be lonely" rubbish - hmmm, wonder where they get that idea from ?

Maybe a contact order might help ? (she suggests with not a lot of conviction seeing as unreasonable RPs seem able to break these with impunity and no fear of being punished)

I think ruddynorah is right, they get to the age when they'd much rather be with their friends. From memory it started around 12/13 for my DSD, but we tended to compromise and allow her time with her friends but fit us in along the way. Don't get me wrong, DH found it hard doing it and as it turns out we've had no recognition or thanks for trying to adapt to her teenage needs. Perhaps if we'd never given in, which is where you're coming from, things may have turned out differently for us, eh? Depends on so many variables - the ex being one of them!

I think the good intentions of wanting DSD to know that you are fighting for her is really not going to work and will backfire on you.

I know it's frustrating but if you can be the bigger peope and say you don't want her to go but if she wants to she can because you want her to be happy, but you would like to see her another night instead for tea for example - then you aren't being the bad guys but are still having some contact. It will show her that you are being reasonable, and one day she will realise that her mother is not!

I appreciate DSD mother may not allow another night for her to visit and is deliberately playing games but I think you are playing right into her hands by refusing to let DSD go.

Hi BOM

My opinion, for what it's worth is that your DP is damned if he does and damned if he doesn't.
When DP stood his ground, he was the bad guy, but when he conceded and let ExW have her way,she and DSD sent DP emails and publicly accused him of not caring enough to want to see her.

As for Pluto , your DH is in for a shock if he doesn't watch it on his own first - there is a chapter entitled 'Mistakes the Rejected Parent makes' and he may well prefer to come to terms with that on his own first.

Oh, and your DsD is too old for a contact order - it will be a court recital on both patents to facilitate contact at specified times subject to the DCs specific wishes. As you know, this gave DSD's mum room to manipulate her and I remember her sobbing that 'she got into trouble' with her mum when she said that she did want to see her dad

Can't you just trade weekends?

soup I'm sure that if it were that easy, BOM wouldn't be ranting here about it - the SD mum has independently made arrangements on a contact weekend with no prior conversation with her ex - what does that tell you about the level of co-operation between households?

It tells me that it is very like the way my ex arranges things with the children for "my" weekend and tells me they are happening. So we trade weekends.

As an aside, I would like to make the point that the NRP can be a wanker when it comes to this kind of thing too.

soup oh, I know - but to be fair, the balance of power does lie with the RP - after all, they can make sure that the DCs are 'not home' when the NRP arrives to pick them up of course, a NRP can fail to drop off at the end of a contact visit as well, and I know this happens
Despite your ex's disrespect, he is clearly prepared to negotiate over weekends - BOMs experience is very different, as is mine as our DPs are considered an unnecessary part of their DCs lives by the RP - hence the frustration

ruddynorah that's not the case here as the friends actually prefer to come here as we have a better city for them to visit. When she's at her Mums she generally isn't allowed friends over. Her MUm also goes out in the evening and leaves her alone which she doesn't like. She doesn't call us when she's scared anymore though

Sadly she's too old for a court order I beleive although we are working on it (or should I say I am working on it!)

Soupdragion, we tried to do a bit of swapping weekends over Christmas but as there is my DD to consider who stays with her Dad every other weekend we needed to swap her too so they could see achother. No sooner had we done it than ex decided to swap back again and I refuse to have my five year old messed about because her Dad and I have worked so hard to be grown up and flexible and civil - with her happiness as a priority for both of us.

If this was a normal situation it wouldn't be so bad, just swap the odd weekend as and when things come up - no biggy. And as she gets older there will no doubt be lots of times that she has social engagements and cn't come on access weekends. In fact I'd prefer if she was able to pass through both homes freely all through the week. But because of our specific situation, it is clear that this trip to Brighton has been deliberately booked for that date. It isn't a special occasion, there is nothing particular going on in Brighton that day. It could be done any weekend of the year but has been booked on that weekend when DH is already dealing with the fact that having had his DD with him 3/4 nights a week and every other weekend for the past 4 years he is now copinbg with one night a week and often not even that. That particular weekend will mean he wont see her for 4 weeks

How frustrating for you - I know we have had this situation and we have asked dsd if the weekend can be rearranged (as we want her to have fun) and if the dates were changed then it would be possible for her to spend time with you and have the weekend IF mum rescheduled.

The thing is, it's not like it's an event that is happening in DHs contact time and he wants tohave her all to himself rather than let her do the fun event. The event has been arranged during the contact time on purpose, and not even by DSD. If we rearrange weekends, chances are she'll just change the dates of her plans any way. It's all about control sadly and what ever we do, she holds the cards because DSD will do whatever her Mum wants her too.

I don't know if we've done the right thing but bascially what has happened now is DH has said he's not happy about it but he realises that if she wants to go he can't stop her. That we are here on all the contact weekends and all week long, also non contact weekends if she wants to come then and gives us a little notice. But we can't swap weekends indefinitely because we need consistency for my DD.

God I'm tired.

So I came downstairs to hear DSD on the phone to her Mum saying "Mum is it okay if you fetch me tonight?" (It was always the arrangement when DSD was with us for half the week that every two weeks her Mum would do one drive to fetch DSD from our house. DH did all the others. But apparently it had been assumed with the new "rota" or whatever you would call this stupid arrangement, that DH would do all the driving. DH didn't realise this and assumed that ex would fetch DSD as usual on a Saturday. When DSD told him that wasn't the case he had obviously asked her to call her Mum and ask her to fetch)
I was furious!! After all our conversations about ex putting DSD in the middle of things that adults should be arranging, and making DSD ask her Dad for things that she knew would cause conflict he had asked DSD to do this! I assume he thought he could avoid the conflict, or more likely he just hadn't thought at all.

I told him that her Mum would react badly and that DSD would be the one in the middle again feeling like shit.

As we were talking I relaised that DSD had hung up the phone and was running upsatirs. I went up to see her and as suspected ex had kicked off and tolkd her "you better tell your Dad to get off his fat lazy arse and bring you back to me else you'll have to find some other way to get home" I asked DSD how she felt and she said she would get the train as if Dad gave in and took her then her Mum would just be all "high and happy" that she had won the fight and DSD would feel bad for her Dad (This was quite a revelation!)

I didn't give any opinion at all other than to say that she was to tell both of her parents that she wasn't going to be passing any messages back and for any more and that she refuses to be in the middle. I told her that I had told her Dad the same and I said the way she had been treated recently is disgusting when she is only a baby. She said she feels like her childhood has been taken away because she always has to be the adult and protect her Mum from her bad feelings about Dad and me and them not being together. She said she's sick of having to take her side and sick of hearing all about their rows

Then she said could she watch the DVD that I keep leaving around the house (come back pluto) so I said yes and put it on I told DH he should watch it with her.

When I went to find him to tell him he had three texts on his phone from ex saying he is a useless fucking waste of space and now that he never hardly sees his daughter the least he could do is drive her home, blah blah blah - she wrote "I hope DD staying with you once a week isn't going to cause any problems? If it does then I will have to rethink whether I allow you to see her at all" he ignored them.

Any way I left them watching it while I went to Sainsburys. They have just left to go back to her Mum's house and so I don't know how it went yet but while I was out she text me saying "I Love you" she hasn't said that since before Christmas. Infact she hasn't even text me since Christmas!!!

She hugged me when she left and said she wished could just go to her friend's house rather than back home.

It's dark now and ex hasn't been in touch with either of them since the call with DSD and the three texts. So either she literally doesn't give a shit about her 12 year old potentially finding her own way home in the rain and dark... or she doesn't beleive for a second that DH would not drive her himself. The former makes her a pretty shitty parent, the latter proves she knows he is a good Dad despite her accusations.

Maybe some progress though for DSD????

I hope it is progress for DSD, thank goodness you do your best to stick up for her!!

IME at 12 they do become incredibly selfish and they will take take take from either parent to get the best deal. Is there any chance DSD will want to come for one night on one of her non-contact weekends? Perhaps your dh just needs to say that unless DSD starts living with you 70% of the time regularly or something he will not be changing the maintenance payments!

It's just a hideous situation all round. Can he not start asking DSD when she would like over for the night and then him check (by text) if it's okay with his ex? In the "DSD would like to sleepover Fri eve as she's missing contact weekend for Brighton, is that okay with you?" I know his ex is difficulat to say the least but DSD is a teenager in the making and really her friends will become much more important to her than he will!

BOM, well done to you and I think this is where a step parent really helps as you can be be the caring observer in the situation.

How sad however that your dsd feels like she does but she does seem like a very mature young girl. We had a similar situation with dss some time last year (so similar age) and it was heartbreaking to hear. I really don't want dss to feel his mum cares about her needs more than his, as it's so damaging to his emotional development. I encouraged DSS to speak to his mum and helped him explain how he feels.I do think it has got better as a year later DSS is able to articulate his feelings and the ex has been more consistent over contact. I'm not naive to think it's all fixed however!