Enforcing a contact order

[NotaDisneyMum]

I was going to put this in legal, but suspect i will get lynched so thought I'd ask all you wonderful steps instead!

It is only a matter of time before DSS mum breaches the CO contact arrangements set out for DSS to have contact with DP.
She has openly stated that she does not want him to spend any time here or see his Dad. She refuses to engage with professionals, who she states are wrong in their assertion that DSS will benefit from maintaining a relationship with his Dad.

DP has found out that if DSS mum workings contact, before the court will consider an enforcement order, they will require both parents to attend information sessions. This is apparently a new element to the law that was put in place in April of last year.

This means that DSS mum can continue to withold contact while attending the information sessions, by which time, DSS relationship with DP will have broken down, so when the court do consider enforcement, it will be that much more difficult for them both.

Has anyone got any experience of this or can give any advice? Thanks

*withholds not workings!

Sadly, what you describe appears to be true (we've got a friend going through something similar). If the woman decides to withold contact, even though it contravenes a court order, she can still continue witholding contact whilst all the subsequent mediation etc sessions take place.

Basically, if the woman claims contact would be unwise/inappropriate/harmful, then it seems to be up to the man to prove her wrong. So in anything else legal it's innocent til proven guilty, but the reverse seems to apply in these sort of situations.

Basically, if the woman claims contact would be unwise/inappropriate/harmful, then it seems to be up to the man to prove her wrong.

In our case, their mum is not claiming any of those things -she just doesn't want the DC's to see their Dad and sees no point/reason/necessity for it

I've no advice I'm afriad NADM but thought I'd come and hold your hand.

I suppose it's in place as in a lot of cases when a mother insists the children don't see their father it is with good reason - and the law must protect children. It's just so sad and shameful that many other women use this fact to their own advantage.

Oh gosh - no advice I'm afraid. We are in the very early stages of investigating mediation. We already know DH's ex will refuse to attend so this will end up in court sadly...

Similar to you, this situation has only been created through DH's ex 'just not wanting' DSD to have a good, constant relationship with us.

Hoping your situation won't go as far as you think it might NADM but I know what it's like - you just can't reason with unreasonable people

Thanks BOM - it is incredibly frustrating

The problem that DP is coming up against is that very few people seem to be able to get their head around the fact that DSS mum doesn't want him to see his Dad, for no other reason that she doesn't see the point. They assume that DP must have wronged his exW in some way (she had an affair), they assume that he has been abusive in some way, or that I am the OW. The concept that a mother might not be putting her DC's first seems to be so alien to most people that they just can't accept it

DSS in in counselling to deal with the fallout of his mums behaviour and the counsellor is aware of his mums position, DP has self-referred to a family mediation service (again!) in the hope that exW will be prepared to discuss things, the school are aware but don't really accept DP's position; they are a very "mother focused" school and prefer all Dads to keep a low profile!

It's an awful position to be in and I don't know what the answer is. As BOM said there are obviously cases where contact's witheld for genuine reasons and those kids needs to be protected. In cases where contact's obstructed due to spite or "revenge" though, maybe one deterrent to stop these women destroying parent/child relationships would be some sort of effective punishment at the end of the mediation/consultation process if and when it's finally been proven that there's no good reason(s) why the dad shouldn't see the child(ren). Maybe if the mother had to pay a huge fine, or even got jailed that might just deter her from being such a bitch in the 1st place ? ..... but I can also see the howls of indignation at such suggestions from people who'll claim punishing the mother would also in effect punish the child (not that these considerations always seem to matter with other crimes !) Having said that there should be no reason why people who break contact orders (except in exceptional cases with genuine reasons) shouldn't be given a heavy length of community service while the kids are with their dad but I very much doubt that will ever happen either as apparently "mummy" can't possibly be seen to be punished in any way at all becasue that might upset the kids !

My DP did get a contact order .... but only after having NO contact for 5 and 1.5 years respectively with his kids. IMO, their relationship(s) now, though on the face of it, okay, are very much far from okay and seem to have developed into one sided affairs where the kids only ever see him when there's something in it for them (money, presents, days out they approve of). Without that element of bribery there probably wouldn't be a so called relationship at all. So yeah .... obviously when you have to rebuild a relationship after a long period of absence you have so much more to repair, and when kids have been indoctrinated to be very anti the NRP, you have to work extra hard at "proving" to them that you're not the shit dad they've been told about. The system effectively condones such situations IMO because the wheels work so slowly ..... from application to final hearing for example, my DP's contact order took 2 years, which was utterly ridiculous, due to both obstruction and non co-operation from DP's ex (cancelling dates, claiming not to have received letters, late in returning forms etc) and cock-ups by CAFCASS in making appointments when they should have done (judge: "oh dear, you've missed a vital interview with the children, never mind, let's set another date for 6 months hence" .... a complete joke). The worst, the absolute worst thing was - and this shows what a farce the family courts can be - was that as the order was being issued, the magistrates actually told DP's ex that they understood she couldn't "force" the children to see their father given their ages and that if they refused, she wouldn't get into trouble ! I'm not making it up - I've never heard anything so effing ridiculous in all my life ...... what the hell were they doing, as representatives of the law, making an order if they accepted it couldn't (or wouldn't) be enforced ? That - apparently - being the case, DP feels under even more pressure to "persuade" the skids to see him as he knows he won't get any back up from the court ..... means the way he "parents" them now is all wrong IMO because he's scared of them voting with their feet.

Sorry ..... have gone off on a bit of a rant on your thread. Hope your situation is resolved sooner and much more satisfactorily. Just so mad that the "system" can significantly contribute to the whole damn mess of these situations - and it appears completely beyong "them" to ever imagine for a second what the effect of all this can be on other members of the family.

Can't add anything constructive as I believe it is the case that the ex can withhold contact with very little sanction. The only sanction I've heard of it for the mum to be ordered to attend counselling or parenting classes. I think if a court order isn't followed the court should look to award residency to the other parent on the basis that they would facilitate contact with both parents.

DH's ex attended mediation and refused to speak, we went to court and were fortunate that the judge saw through her hostility and awarded contact. In our case the ex is afraid of the consequences of not following through on a CO (more the publicity rather than actual sanctions) so very, very reluctantly complies with the CO.Certainly never the spirit of the order and often attempts to reduce contact.

Our society has a belief that CURRENT mothers cannot be abusive but society does now accept that an adult can define their mothers as toxic or abusive.

If you look on the relationship thread you will find so many women wanting to discuss their dysfunctional mothers, these mums didn't become toxic when their DCs were adults - they have always been toxic. I hope that slowly society will change it's mindset - it's similar to the catholic church who were beyond reproach however that opinion has changed. Some mothers are not good people, they can be violent, selfish and they can suffer from personality disorders, however as women are generally not physically abusive it seems to be ignored.

What we need is for society to start understanding that toxic parents exist for children. It is real for some children and women can be the perpetrators.

There are some very useless fathers out there and I think traditionally, the main reason for a woman being a single mother was because the father had shirked his responsibilities and done a disappearring act. Hence you still have this myth that all single mother are to be put on a pedestal for doing a grand job while the absent Dad is obviously a worthless piece of something.

Some single parents like to believe they are the type of single mother above and will tell anyone who will listen their tales of woe.

I know my DP ex stands at the school gates and tells people that her ex doesn't support her or the children (meaning financial and emotional) and yet she has it so easy with the money we provide and the "babysitting" whenever she chooses, the responsibility we take towards the children etc. Most women with children in a relationship would kill for her easy life!

I really hate the way all single parents are lumped together by society, that's like saying all married parents are the same or all co-habiting parents are the same. Some single parents have it very, very hard and some have it very, very easy and some are in between. Some single parents are pure evil just as some married parents are. I don't know why people can't seem to grasp this simple concept.

My DH was in this position - his ex had very similar views, that fathers were unnecessary and as she didn't want him around, it would be best if DSS didn't have a daddy. She had done exactly the same with her first DC. It was commented on in the psych report - that she gave up on relationships as soon as she achieved her objective (ie a baby).

It took years of court, seriously, all those people who talk about how biased the courts are towards fathers, what rubbish. BUT, if you stick at it long enough, politely, but insistently, eventually courts will take action. And when things start to go the other way, it can happen quite swiftly. In DH's case, his ex was told that the court would transfer Residence to DH if she continued to ignore the order. She then decided to stick the order.

So keep at it, OP and OP's DP.

balia psych report? What led to one of those - was it court ordered? I'd love to see one on DSC mum - to quote one of my favourite authors - "what makes her tick is a weighted chain, she's cuckoo!"

I think that the biggest concern that DP has is DSS age - it won't be long before DSS is old enough for the courts to lift the contact order in favour of a recital led by him; this was the case with DSD at the age of 12 despite her being immature for her age and the CAFCASS report identified that she felt emotionally responsible for her mum. The court still decided she was capable of deciding for herself whether she wanted to see her dad or not

DP recognises that when his exW withholds contact, the likelihood is that by the time the courts finally make a decision, DSS will be considered old enough to make his own mind up and his mum will have successfully estranged him, so he won't want to see his dad - just like DSD

Yes, court ordered - DSS's mum has MH issues and her claim was (after 2 years of being adamant that it didn't affect her in any way) that she her illness rendered her too anxious for more extended contact to take place. She/her sol asked for the psych report themselves, to prove it. Must have been a shock to all concerned when it came back saying she was exaggerating her symptoms to avoid contact.

Unfortunately for you, DSS was only 1 when DH started the court process, so in many ways time was on his side.

I wonder if DP could plant the seed with his exW that she could use that!?! His exW considers mental illness a sign of weakness; counselling/therapy is a huge no-no for her!

I wonder if she's had a bad experience which has coloured her view - she was a 'troubled teen'; I suspect she was sent to a therapist who exposed things she would rather have left buried and hence she thinks it's the worst thing in the world for DSCs

Whatever the reason, she certainly isn't anxious about contact, she just doesn't want DSC to have a relationship with their Dad - but she'll happily leave DCs with her disabled mother overnight while she works (her mum cant get upstairs or unlock the front door, its scary!) and she only calls DSS if she's not busy doing something else!

It was suggested to the ex that DSD have counselling a couple of years ago and she exploded she was horrified at the thought.

I wouldnt even grace her with wondering if it is due to a bad experience, it is purely because she has to control every thought that enters and leaves her DD's head and the thought of relenquishing that control to another person - particularly a professional, is terrifying.

BOM - I swear we are dealing with the same woman!

You might want to gently suggest to your DH that he has just as much right as his exW to arrange for DSD to see a counsellor, including picking her up from school to take her to the appt.

Our experience was that DSS mum went into orbit when DP told her, and told him it wasn't happening - but once she realised that it was going to happen anyway, and she couldn't stop it, she got involved in order to try and control it...... In her mind, it was better to try and influence DSS and the counsellor than refuse to have anything to do with it.

I wish I could emphasis just how important it is to challenge this now - letting it go in the hope it gets better was the worst thing we ever did for DSD and I cannot describe how different our experience with DSS is because we are challenging things

Before, DP would have ignored his exW saying she 'doesn't want the DSC's to see him'. This time, he wrote and asked to talk about it, when she refused, he approached a mediation service and has offered to pay her fees.
She won't change her opinion; but challenging her makes her more careful about what she says to him and DSC's.

I am slowly slowly suggesting these things to him. Re the counselling there is currently no way that DSD will do anything that will upset her Mum so regardless of his rights - it ain't happening.

I've spent several hours tonight researching alienation, his rights and narcisistic mothers and have sent him links to interesting sites / info. He has just started a new job and is studying for a related qualification which is really complex and when I asked him last night if he had had any luck with families need fathers he just looked at me really sad and exhausted and siad "I just don't have the energy"
I know he needs to find the energy, and beleive me I will be making sure he finds it. But I want to give him a little time right now. I thought he was alright but he really isn't. Her visit this weekend has really brought him down again.
Although I have to say - it has made me feel less upset as I've gone in to protect mode again