My DH's ex wants to move to australia with ss

[jencd]

This is my first posting in on mumsnet - Hello!

I'm not yet a mother myself but I have been with my husband for the last five years and we recently got married in June. We live in France and my ss mum lives in Ireland so our situation is quite abnormal.... and it looks like it's about to get more so!

My husband goes back to Ireland once a month to see his son and we have had him for extended periods in France during his school holidays, in the last year he has been with us for six weeks on three seperate occassions and alongside the monthly visits. He loves coming to France and often says he would like to live here permanently (not sure how I feel about that but that's for another posting!!!)

Since we announced our engagement about 12 months ago SS's mum has been calling, texting and emailing my DH that she is moving on with her life too and now wants to move to Australia obviously taking SS with her and her new boyfriend of about 18 months. At first we thought it was a load of rubbish but as time goes on it's become more and more serious. As DH is a legal guardian of his son she can not apply for a visa without his authorisation and she has now issued court proceedings in order to make him sign. We have debated long and hard about the situation and although it breaks DH's heart to think of him so far away he is aware that he can not stop her from moving on with her life seeing as he has clearly moved on with his. We have decided to follow the proceedings through court in order to have some certainty that SS will be returning from the other side of the world and won't just vanish in to the abyss. We have requested he spend his six weeks summer holidays with us in France every year, these happen over Christmas in Australia so we have requested the mother come home for these periods annually.

We have just received a letter from her sollicitor this morning refusing this access arrangement, stating that she will come back for four weeks every year but that DH won't have exclusive access to SS during that time as the child will have to see his extended family on her side too and that all access must happen in Ireland. This obviously means we won't ever have SS in our own home and will have to pay for flights and hotels for both of us and any of our eventual children together to return to Ireland every year for Christmas to see him. Imagine never having Christmas in our own home? Imagine only seeing your son for three weeks a year?

She is such a horrible, spiteful and vindictive woman... I have never felt levels of hatred as I feel for her. I am worried it's literally ruining our lives, at a time when we are newly wed and supposed to be enjoying ourselves we are crippled with anger and fear.

I am also worried her sudden wish for SS not to come to France is due to a rather heated email I sent to her a few weeks ago!

I would be very interested to hear you thoughts and experience on whether this can be upheld in a court or if it's totally unreasonable? Does it seem unreasonable to me because I love DH so much? Does the fact we already live in a foreign country mean that we have no say at all?

I really don't know how you could arrange, or enforce, sensible contact when the child lives literally on the other side of the world. Even if all your access requests had been agreed to, if the ex suddenly decides she can't/won't play ball, I don't know what you could do about it.

And even if she agreed to your requests, and followed them to the letter, how practical/possible is it to spend four weeks over Christmas for the forseeable future in Ireland?

I know you don't feel you can block the move to Australia, on the grounds that your DH has already moved on with his own life - but moving to Oz is a very drastic measure when there's a child from a previous relationship involved. I hate to say this, but if this move DOES go ahead, then it's likely that your DH will have very little contact with his son for years to come. It's a geographical nightmare. What does your solicitor think?

How old is SS? is he old enough to have any say in this himself? and do you know how he feels about it?

I think that heated emails from you to her are not going to improve her attitude to you but I agree with Petal that moving to Aus is a bit extreme for revenge.

I think that you really need to consider mediation.

It's way too late for mediation, in Ireland now it will be a judge who decides.

The solicitor said we have very little grounds to stop her given that we live abroad. My DH has paid his maintenance week in week out and has seen his son way over and above the current court order that's in place.

The "heated" emails from me were in response to the latest of several emails from her stating that the SS will be fine without the DH in his life seeing as he's absent and SS has a great new father figure in his life due to her new boyfriend. She was so provactive and I snapped, corrected her spelling and sent it back to her ... anyway I apologised and you're right it doesn't now justify her saying DH can only have access to his child in Ireland now. Especially not when in the past she's been only too happy to send him packing off to us for three weeks while she jets off to Thailand or New York or the Moon or any other enviable destination!

SS is six, he is adamant that he has lived with his mummy for long enough and doesn't want to move to Australia but wants to live with us instead... sadly though I don't think at 6 he has much say in the matter. The ex is saying that as the recession is still in full swing in Ireland she and her knew boyf can't get work there so it would be in SS's interest for them to move away for a better life.

It's heartbreaking to see my husband going through it, I can see he is worried about it all of the time. He's really worried about the points Petal makes, how can any court order be enforced from the other side of the world. The cost implications involved in flying a family over from the other side of the world are huge, how can she guarantee to be able to afford it?

This is the third time in six years they will have been to court over his rights, it's terrible especially when DH was only 22 when she fell pg after only being together for 3 months.

Very hard to detach from this one... :(

BTW, I guess I should also add a few details about how the ex treats her child....

When I first met DH, I would've been surprised to hear if she spent 4 nights a week with SS. Every night he was either with her parent's, her brothers or sisters or my DH's parents.

Since she's with her boyf for the last 12 months it seems baby sitting duties fall to him more often than not although he is always at my DH's parents for the weekends.

She goes on holiday with her boyf, leaves SS behind and her relatives organise a rota on who will have him which nights.

He's extremely close to DH's family, his brothers, sisters and parents obviously from his weekly visits to them. He used to live with Ex and her dad until she got a flat with the new boyf so from ages 0-5. SS has only known the new boyf for 1 year and she is planning to take him off to the other side of the world with no-one but the two of them. It really does not seem like a very secure environment... and I am quite sure she has no idea how difficult will be managing on her own over there. She has made no plans for where they will live (apparently they will get a hotel and find somewhere when they get there) or what school he will go to.

Then there's the fact the child says he doesn't want to go. When he tells her that he will miss everyone she bribes him by telling him he will have a pet kangaroo, a pet snake and a swimming pool in Oz so then he gets excited again. Even still he has always maintained to DH that he doesn't want to go.

DH thinks it will be a very traumatic upheaval for the child and really worries about how it will affect him. But, on the otherhand, he is very afraid after previous court performances to not acquiese to her wish as she always manages to twist him into a negative light and his solicitor has advised him that he will look unreasonable if he doesn't agree to her going. Now she won't even play ball over the access - it's a shambles!

I would probably block the move unless reasonable contact can be agreed. It's totally unreasonable to expect DSS not to have residential stays at your house.

Its hard because you are in different countries etc but I know from my experience that the childs views are taken into account, in the UK. They get a mediator to talk to the child. I don't know if SS being so young would make a difference, probably unfortunately.
Its difficult. I hope you sort this for your DH and SS sake its not a good situation for a child

I would fight it, if only for your peace of mind. If you lose and they go anyway, at least you can feel you did all you could to prevent it.

A good friend of mine was in a similar position with his DS (also 7). He lost the court case and eventually followed out to Austrlia (they had lived there together in the past, and his ex was Australian). From his experience, the courts do take into account the support that the RP will have in Australia (do they have jobs, family, etc). If her plans are as vague as you suggest, I'm unsure how she's even managed to get a visa. My friend had great difficulties. Also, if it is a serious possibility for him to live with you, the fact that you have a home, job, etc would be significant if she doesn't. The courts do also ask the child their views but that isn't overriding at the age of 7. (My friend's DS told my friend he wanted to stay with him, but also told his mother he wanted to be with her - both true of course - he didn't want to lose either of them!)

He did find Skype was a wonderful way of keeping in touch though, during periods when he wasn't with his DS - even with the time difference there's a window in the morning and evening when people are awake both sides of the world. Buy him a computer, and see if you can make sure she gets him an internet connection. Good luck

So perhaps we should totally change tactics, instead of thinking of danger management as such with the access just try to stop her entirely? But can you really stop someone from moving on with their life like that? The other worry is that as they don't have a lot going for them in Ireland DSS might resent DH in the future for condemning him to stay in a country where there's very little work and his mother isn't working and they don't have a great standard of life.

Moving to Ireland isn't really an option, we have a company, employees, a house and a mortgage here. DH chose France as a better place to make a living, but chose a location where he's within easy distance of an airport where he can be home in a matter of hours if necessary. If she were thinking to move somewhere in Europe there would be no need to block her... it's the distance, time constraints and cost implications of flights to and from Australia that cause such big problems.

There's no family or anything in Australia to support them, and she has relied so heavily on her support network in Ireland over the years I really don't think she will last it out in Australia. However that said, even if she is back with her tail between her legs in a few years it's still going to be a confusing and disruptive time for the little boy.

Where did she and your husband live when they were to6ether?
What nationality is your husband?
Where was the child born?
Did your husband move from Ireland?

As the parent of a 6year old DS, knowing what I now know about moving counties with him (disaster) I would block it. Either by going for full custody, or by whatever means. Children do not necessarily adapt, and your SS will not only loose contact with his dad( so important for boys at this age), but also his whole support network. From what you describe, his extended family has been a huge support and vital too him.

Having had girlfriends in your situation, and seen the mothers of the SS children being difficult and the fathers loosing complete contact with their children, and that is in the same cOuntry..... All the court orders in the world, can't actually make them deliver the children to you. It is also too far to far for to fly unaccompanied for quite some time....
I am all for being reasonable, but that cuts both ways. I feel very sorry for your SS.

Molly, my DH never really lived with his ex, however they were both resident in Ireland at the time, child was born in Ireland and my husband is Irish and moved over to France as the recession hit and he was unemployed. He had friends here who offered him a job and he took it.

I'm not really sure how we can block the move. DH isn't signing the papers to allow them to get a visa, and ex has now persued legal action to "dispense with need" for him to authorise such decisons. Effectively she is trying to take away his rights as a legal guardian of his son.

I'm really pleased people seem to understand our point of view. To her it's cut dry and simple, "you moved away so now I'm moving too."

Mrs Laughan - how did you move? Why was it a disaster?

WE have moved with my husbands work.....we have just arrived in the UK, this is the 4th coutry DS has lived in, and hopefully the last! (for a while anyway....
DS does not cope with change well..in some ways I say that I think that saying that is really unfair as he has had a lot of change to deal with.

DS has other issues - a speech delay, which doesn't help things. With the speech delay and all the moving his social skills are behind and that really affects him when it comes to school - I presume your SS won't be dealing with that.

But taking your DH emotions out of it - think of it from you DSS perspective. One of the most stressful things as humans we can do is move house, add to that he is moving country, and yes they speak english...but that is where the similarities end. There is a huge cultural divide b/w Ireland and australia, which your SS will have to navigate, WITHOUT his support network. It will be incredibly stressful and hard on him. From your earlier posts it is really clear that the family around him have been incredibly important to him, and your DH ex's has made it so. I have no judgement there, it is really hard being a single parent, and she has rightly created this reliance for him on his extended family. To rip him away from that will be really stressful (DS really misses his extended family and is quite emotional about that at times, even though he wouldn't remember living in the same country as them), added with lost contact with his father, who he obviously feels very close too, as his preference would be to live with him, rather than his mother, in australia.
TBH your DH ex, sounds incredibly selfish(sorry for the judgement), it sounds like it is all about her, and your SS is just dragged along...she is not thinking about the consequences for him. She is also not being reasonable about access - it sounds like her attitude is very arrogant and very take it or leave it, when it should be about negotiating access that suits everyone, and everyone is happy about.

She is contemplating moving along way away, to another country, and her attitude to access stinks - and it will only get worse.

The hardest thing as a parent, I think is coming to terms with, that sometimes as a parent it is not about being reasonable for everyone involved, but standing up and being counted on, what is best for your child.

When did the ex decide to move to Australia? what work does she and her bf do?

The first we heard about a move was about 12 months ago, DH received a text saying "just so you know we're moving to Australia." DH didn't retaliate and she then called up about two weeks later to tell him again she was moving to Australia and she was just calling to give him the opportunity to go to his solicitor and try and stop her. We thought at first it was another in a long line of cruel, hurtful things she says but as time went on we found out her boyfriend, who's an alarm fitter BTW, has contacts with a security firm over there and they are sponsoring him. She will be going as his de facto partner and has no plans to work there to begin with. She is also planning a way to keep her council house in Ireland for as long as possible before giving it up. Since the first text we've been given lots of mixed msgs, first they were moving to Melbourne, then it's Brisbane (they are about as far apart in distance as UK - Greece). She told us she had the visas, that SS probably wouldn't be able to come to our wedding in June this year as they would probably have left by then, they were leaving in April 2012, then in October 2011, then she would be returnign to Ireland for her sister's hen party in Feb 2012... not exactly a concrete set of plans.

The situation now is that she has to have DH's signature on her visa application, so they don't even have a visa yet. We have the court hearing on 25th November. Her sister's wedding is in April 2012 so they probably won't leave now til after that.

It sounds like a horrible situation. I'm so sorry.

I have a friend who just moved from the UK to Australia with her boyfriend. Because her boyfriend had had a baby with an Australian girl, in the UK, a couple of years ago, and his ex then decided to move back home and got court approval. (Don't know the ins and outs)

They realised that the only way the dad could realistically maintain his relationship with his baby child was to go and live in Australia himself, so that's what he did. Unless you are both time-rich and money-rich, or else have an exceptionally strong commitment to co-parenting, I just don't see how an Australian-Europe co-parenting venture could work. But it would be interesting to hear stories that prove otherwise...

Penguins, I don't think that's fair to say he has been passive. He has not signed the forms to allow her to get a visa. He would love to try to stop her from going but his solicitor has advised him he would look unreasonable to do this. On the other side of the coin his son now lives in social housing in rough part of Dublin, the country is in huge recession and although he hates the idea of him moving away he is also wondering if it will give his son a better life to be in Australia. Then there's the flip side of if he does try to block her and her partner leaves her, he could be blamed for the rest of his life by the mother and DS for stopping them from having the chance to improve their lives. These are the dilemas that keep him awake at night.

We are going to court in a couple of weeks. The other possibility is to apply for full custody, although that seems to present many similar problems as SS would still be moving abroad and losing out on one of his parents. In any case, I don't think we would be granted it.

We have talked about a move ourselves and it's a possibility, but it boils my blood to think our lives can be so dictated by a person such as his ex who clearly has no regard for anyone else around her.

and penguins, the very first time she said she was moving to Oz was four years ago with a now ex boyfriend.... she's also changed "career" three or four times from being a beautician, to a waitress, to a nurse... She's hardly a reliable source of information.

Why do you think you would not get custody? If this woman is as unreasonable and unreliable as you depict her and you could provide a more stable, permanent home than she can then you may have a strong case for custody. It sounds like either way your DSS is going to be leaving his home in Ireland (that doesn't sound that nice anyway, I know what social housing in Dublin is like...)

I have spent that past 10 years locking horns with my sons father in court and out and it wasn't until the fourth or fifth court hearing that the judge finally suggested mediation (finally, as I had been asking for it from the start but I was representing myself and he had a very aggressive lawyer who just wanted to crush me) Any way the mediation absolutely worked in my favour because it was all about what was best for DS which, in my case, was all I was interested in anyway. The decision of the mediator is legally binding. I still think that you should press for this route even if it does seem late, it sounds like you still have time...

Just bumping this up - have there been any developments?

as a adult i can say there was nothing better that my mother did for me than get me out of ireland at the age of 7, as a child i was devastated. missed my family horribly.
your husband has show great commitment to his son by going over every month and having him at yours regularly even though he lives abroad which should stand you in good stead. i agree with the poster that says about the passiveness though in a less harsh tone, it may be the advice you have been given but is it right? get a second opinion it is not ok for her to remove a permanent parental fixture for dss life. you are being entirely to reasonable.

admirable perhaps, get you decent access to dss, nope!
i would block this move with every fibre of my being and go for custody you might not get it but it will show her that you are now playing hard ball and might make her wise up a bit.
and yes ireland is in a ression at the moment, like half the world. your dh is not responsible for his ex's financial situation he pays his maintenance. there is no guarantee they would fair better in Australia but they would not have the family network there to support them.
that little boy is going to be devastated if he will not be able to see his daddy regularly.
we are talking long term issues, i speak from experience.