older sdc

[gottaspook]

This is a really sensitive one. I'm posting on behalf of my friend who's really upset. I have no experience in this area so thought I would ask here.

She has 2 sdc. The sdd is nearly 23 and the sds is 17.

Her worry is that when the sdd visits, she always sits next to and cuddles up to her dh, arms around each other, the dh stroking her leg etc. She thinks this is fine when they're children, but now feels so uncomfortable with it, as she's a grown woman. She said it doesn't feel normal, as it's just how she cuddles with him. She senses that her dh is uncomfortable, but neither of them speak about it. She has learnt her lesson and never says anything negative about the sdd as he is very defensive.

She's been asking me if this is normal. I said I certainly wasn't cuddling my dad at that age, but I don't know if that's just me? I didn't know what to tell her! Can anyone tell me if you think this is a bit strange, or just normal? Thanks!

Personally I think a hug when you say hello or goodbye to your parent(s) is fine, and walking arm in arm isn't entirely unheard of ..... but, it does seem very odd that there's leg stroking going on, and to actually sit all cuddled up on a regular basis at that age.

I would have said that the SD is "marking her territory" as woman of the house and/or as the most important woman in her dad's life by being over familiar like this in front of your friend, i.e. showing who's boss. But then the DH seems to be colluding with this if he's stroking her, and I admit I'd feel uncomfortable about it. It may be that the daughter's doing as I suggested and the DH doesn't want to upset her by pushing her away, or by avoiding her, so plays along with all the over the top (IMO) touchy feely stuff ..... but actually, if he suspects that she's not being simply "affectionate", but is showing who's boss so to speak, then to play along is very disrespectful to your friend.

I suppose they might have always had a physical relationship but I think it's true to say that by 23 most people have grown out of something quite so demonstrative with their parents.

Thank you catsmother, I think the sdd has always been affectionate, and my friend has been thinking she would grow out of it. But now that she hasn't, she doesn't want to be there when she's there in the evenings, just to avoid seeing this. This is not realistic though.

I suspect is may be a "who's boss" situation, as the sdd has always been insecure and threatened (and in my opinion jealous) of my friend.

I think what has pushed my friend over is that she was sitting on the other side of her dh and she said it almost felt like he was with another woman right in front of her because of the fact that the sdd is a grown woman.

Should I advise my friend to talk to her dh, or should she not stir up the waters? Her dh doesn't like her to say anything that's not positive about her, thinks she's being mean for the sake of it. She normally vents with me, but here, I don't know what to advise.

If I tell her that it's not normal, what does she do about it? Thanks for your help, my friend deserves it as she's a lovely person!

Yes, I think I would find that difficult to deal with too. I wonder if her daughter is doing it all the more because she knows it will upset your friend? My eldest step daughter is only 15 but I have noticed as soon as DP get a minute to sit down together she comes and sits in between us and I am starting to wonder if she is trying to assert her "head female" place too!

I have also had a heated discussion where I felt my DP was jealous of my then 12 year old son having an occassional cuddle and head scratch. He kept telling me it was "wrong" to cuddle him.

So, I can see it from both sides, albeit not with a 23 year old!

I think if your friend says anything she will be accused of being jealous or having a perverted mind.

I would be inclined to encourage her to find other things to do when DSD is there so DSD has less of an audience to play up to.

Yes, my 18 year old DSD did this, too- both when on the sofa, and when out, she hung on DP like a limpet. I pointed out to DP how inappropriate this is, and he had not fully appreciated it was happening, and, after thinking about it and observing it for a while, admitted this was done entirely "for my benefit"- it was not happening at all when i wasn't there. A territorial thing, as in "my dad will cuddle me before you" type thing.
He is working on it!

It's a difficult one. Like Redhen says, your friend's on a hiding to nothing by speaking directly to him because it's an easy cop out for her DH to accuse her of being jealous .... if he doesn't want to "upset" SD by distancing himself a bit, and of course the other easy cheap shot is the perverted mind argument.

I really don't think there's any suggestion that something untoward is going on ... I tend to think it's the top female thing. Your friend's DH probably does realise it's inappropriate, hence the discomfort you mentioned, but is scared of "rejecting" her. (Have read similar tales in the past). However, what I did wonder was does the daughter behave like this in front of other people too ... e.g. aunts, grandparents etc., or even friends ? Maybe, were your friend to say something along the lines of she doesn't want to upset him, but so and so had mentioned the other day that SD seemed very over the top touchy and they'd thought this was a bit odd at her age. Your friend could say maybe he needs to steer her away from such overt demonstrations just in case people start silly gossip about her, or thinking she's behaving a bit immaturely. I know .... you'd have to phrase it very carefully ... but if she approached it from the perspective of being concerned for SD about what people might think of her he might not be quite so defensive. Obviously, were his mum or dad to say something along the same lines that'd be even better.

Sorry, posted too early- was also going to say- does she do this if DW is not around, and has she thought of videoing it, so her DH can have a look at how it looks to outsiders?

Thank you theredhen. I think you've given great advice. It definitely doesn't feel wrong having a cuddle with your 12 year old, but as you say, not with a 23 year old! I think you're right that she shouldn't say anything. Her dh will not see it the way my friend sees it, he still thinks she's a little girl and spoils her rotten.

I'd say she might not know that it upsets my friend (she says she tries hard not to look upset) but that might be the motivation for it. From an outsider, I can see there's a lot of jealousy there.

My friend said that it's usually in the evenings when she stays over, they've had dinner and they're just watching tv or a dvd that she'll get positioned next to her dad so she can cuddle him.

So I'll tell her to do something else in her room or the kitchen, then sdd won't feel the need to show everyone that "she's the most important woman in the house" as catsmother said.

Thanks for your thoughts so far.

I think a lot of women have encountered this problem with their partner's daughters - I certainly did, and there have been others who have posted about this kind of thing here before. But even then, we are usually talking about adolescent girls!! For a 23 year old to be doing this is really bizarre and unhealthy, IMO.

What can she do about it? That's the tricky part. In my case, dealing with a 14 year-old, I put my foot down. DH changed his behaviour and responses to DSD, and gradually the physical displays were toned down. But it was hard to get DH to see the problem when he was reluctant to hear any criticism or to risk any hurt feelings with DSD. If your friend can't talk to her DH about it and really expect him to be firm about this, then I am afraid it might continue.

I feel bad for your friend, as I suspect this issue is just one facet of a larger problem. When I was desperately reading up on step-parenting and blended families, I came across the term 'spousification' and it really fit what I was noticing with DH and DSD.

Just missed those last posts. Thank you eveyone for contributing.

My friend doesn't know if she does it when she's not there, as she never talks about it with her dh. I know for sure she doesn't do it when I've been over for dinner and my friend says she doesn't do it when the grandparents and other relatives are around. So I imagine it's all for my friend's benefit. She has a boyfriend too, so she gets plenty of affection from him. It must be the top woman scenario.

So I should just tell her not to hang around with them after dinner when she's there, shouldn't I? I kind of wish she would talk about it not being appropriate like you did Oldernotwiser, but her dh is not very easy going - takes everything my friend says to be a criticism of either himself or the sdd.

Yes brdgrl, my poor friend has put up with a lot and they nearly split up over it all before they had dc of their own.

I remember her telling me that when her sdd was about 10 or 11, she used to write him love poems. I thought this was so strange at the time, but put it down to daddy being the only love of her life, now he's gone, I want to show him that I love him. But this fits with your spousification. That explains a lot about her behaviour.

I can't wait to show her this thread! At least she'll know that others have been through it and maybe it will pass (when she gets married??!!)

This situation doesn't just apply to daughters. My stepson is 17, and approx 3 or 4 inches taller than his Dad, but they frequently walk down the street arm-in-arm (with me lagging behind like a Gooseberry), are very touchy-feely round the house, kiss each other goodnight, tell each other they love each other, and I once came out of the ladies loo at Baldock Services to find them literally in each others arms.

To be frank, they look like a pair of homosexuals.

I'm sure SS is trying to unconsciously assert himself as 'higher in the pecking order' than me, ie that he and his father are the primary relationship, rather than his father and me. DH is too Disney to challenge this behaviour, so it continues.

The dynamics between a part-time parent and their offspring are frequently very skewed/unhealthy and I think that's whats going on with the OP.

Hi Petal02, thanks for your thoughts. I'm sure you're right and the term Disney I would say applies in this case. Have you ever challenged your dh about it? That's the difficult bit, I want her to challenge it, but I'm sure it will cause more friction.

I haven't shown this to my friend (will be seeing her tomorrow) but I know she will appreciate hearing your experiences. I'm definitely putting her on to MN.

This is a difficult one.

My youngest step daughter who is 17 and currently boycotting our household because we put a few basic ground rules in place recently, had feelings of resentment, from the start. But, she was young when I met her (12) and only (15) when dh and I married. I was nothing to do with the breakup of his previous marriage....his ex had an affair and would not stop seeing her lover though didn't want to end her marriage (lifestyle).

Sd used to sit on the other side of the room from us and it was as if she wanted to distance herself from the "new order". It wasn't about me exactly, it was about ANYONE in dad's life. She was fine with me as a long distance girlfriend but moving me in and marrying me, was NOT supposed to happen.

I would encourage dh to sit with her; do stuff just the two of them etc as I felt it would ease the transition ie, she was still as loved and important to dad as she always was. But still, she dislikes me living here and now won't come at all.

My point is, this young lady clearly feels the need to "state her boundary". I think her way of doing it is very inappropriate, but my guess is, that's what it's all about.

Speak to dh. It's odd and needs sorting.

Thank you LaDolche, I agree that it's odd and needs sorting. I showed this thread to my friend and she's relieved that she has reason to feel uncomfortable.

She said she wants to talk to her dh, but knows he'll just get defensive and mean and tell her she has problems (like he always does).

She said for now that she will do as advised and find something else to do after they've eaten and not sit with them on the sofa. She might not feel the need then to "state her boundary" as LaDolche and others said.

I think I've also convinced her to join mumsnet, so she might start posting here for herself!
Ps. I've changed back from my halloween name.

A bit of perspective from the other side as I know this comes up a lot.

I was always a Daddy's girl (the tom boy out of 3 girls). When I was around 12 we went through an odd distancing phase as I started to grow up and I think it was odd for him, me becoming a young lady. I think our cuddles, knee sitting phased out then. When I was 16 we realised My mum was terminally ill. I had sisters of 7 & 12 at this stage. The shock of this made me become very loving, affectionate to my Dad, sisters and I think anyone else who happened to be around. My DM died when I was 17. I helped my Dad bring up my 2 sisters. We all coped very well and were very loving & affectionate to each other. My Dad met someone around 2 years later and things moved quite slowly initially. I was happy for him. When I was around 21/22 (can't believe I can't remember), my Dad's partner moved in. She was very nice and dealt with what I now realise was a hideous situation amazingly. I had moved out of home and it wasn't too big a deal for me, but when I was home I very much monopolised my Dad.

I shortly moved to another country and have to admit that in my early to late twenties, when he or I visited (nearly always with his partner), although I was pleased to see her, I was desperate to see him. We are always very affectionate and would sit on sofa with his arm around me (no stroking but maybe some' patting). I have realised from this forum that I did all the awful things of ignoring his partner, linking arms with him. It was not in anyway through dislike of her. I was just desperate to be with him (in particular as I lived away). I'm now 36 and she is his wife. I think she is a fabulous lady, love her company and feel my Dad is so lucky to have her. I will stick up for her if he is being grumpy (what my perfect Dad??????). But I'm still probably a nightmare and demand his attention when I'm around. He adores me and we are still affectionate.

The awful thing is that out of the 3 daughters, I wasn't the worst one for her.

I am currently going through a terrible patch in my marriage (DH had an affair) and it looks like divorce is a real possibility. The thoughts of meeting someone and having SC children fills me with horror after my poor Dad's wife's experience (I can't call her SM as she is too young!!). Although I would love more children.

Thanks for your input Siog. From the outside, I can see that the step daughter feels a bit pushed out and wants to show her dad affection and wants to have it shown back, just like you did.
But from my friend's point of view, having a grown woman cuddling your dh, even of course knowing it's innocent, must feel strange. I just can't imagine it myself. I would never have sat with my dad cuddling him at that age, especially when I had a boyfriend!