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You can see him when you want but you sort it

8 replies

nolnah · 17/05/2011 22:36

Just looking for advise/rant. My DH has 10 yr old with his ex. She is somewhat selfish with many examples. The worst being, going to NZ and staying there for 8 weeks without telling us when and where she was..... however recently she moved to the midlands a four/five hour round trip for us. She has never agreed to meet half way or to help at all. My dp asked could she help out and meet halfway for mid term as we are taking DSS camping for the week and DP is away wu work so is finding the five our trip diff to fit in before we go. She refused. Texts got heated and she has basically said "go away, stop asking - you want him you sort it" I feel so sorry for DP he bends over backwards afraid to upset her as she holds all the shots. Why would a mother not want to do her very best to ensure her children have a positive experience with their father? Why would they not make any allowances to try and encourage easy access??
do fed up for him

OP posts:
catsmother · 18/05/2011 07:46

Snap ! That's exactly the same sort of sh1t we've had to put up with for the last 10 years. A mother who moved 140 miles away - because she wanted to, not for job reasons or any other compelling reason. Fair enough because you can't tie people down but she's since given absolutely no consideration to the huge difficulties a 4-5 hour round trip creates - in terms of time and expense, and has resolutely refused to help AT ALL. We've also had, literally "you want to see them, you come and get them". How bloody selfish. Her spite has even extended as far as when she was out for the day en route, i.e. closer to us, she refused to tell DP exactly where so he could drop the skids back to her there. You then had the absolutely ridiculous situation of 2 cars travelling back along the same road, probably within 10 mins of each other, going to the same destination, yet one of them was making the journey totally unnecessarily.

My advice would be to try and get a formal contact order established asap. Many judges will also take distance and the facilitation of contact into account and will order the ex to meet halfway. Unfortunately, my DP prevaricated about court for so long (years and years) that when he did finally get himself into gear (the main issue was with obstructed contact) a precedent had been set and his situation with doing all the driving was, I believe, looked at with less sympathy than if he'd applied immediately and really he got nowhere. I feel literally sick at the 1000s we've had to pay on petrol over the years and it's a struggle to do it - never more so now. It's so so unfair while that lazy spiteful cow sits on her backside and sneers.

Totally agree that a responsible and loving mother would want to encourage a good relationship between her children and their father and would therefore make that as easy as she could. I was a single mother for many years and used to regularly meet my ex so our son wasn't being picked up at ridiculous o'clock and getting to bed really late etc. My ex, not me, had moved away but my main concern was doing what I could to minimise any disruption on our son rather than split hairs about who should be doing what. For someone to move away AND then refuse to assist in getting kids to see their dad is utterly wicked and is tantamount to them saying they don't care if the kids never see their father again. I'm sure that many relationships in these circumstances DO suffer because people literally can't afford the travel expenses, or, the time and distance means kids have to be picked up later and/or returned sooner.

Lasvegas · 18/05/2011 13:47

Catsmother you mention -My advice would be to try and get a formal contact order established asap. Many judges will also take distance and the facilitation of contact into account and will order the ex to meet halfway. Assuming court say meet halfway, how is it enforced if the mother says, i need to work/my health is poor/I cannot afford the petrol?

catsmother · 18/05/2011 15:49

Unfortunately, I have no direct experience of enforcement, as mentioned above. I do however, know of several NRPs (as well as DP), who, in the course of a contact order, have raised the driving/travel issue. It'd seem that if the judge/magistrate is enlightened, and, if they agree that one party doing all the travel is having a negative impact on the children (e.g. reduced contact due to cost/time, late to bed, early mornings etc), they will ask the PWC why they are unwilling to help find a solution which is most beneficial for the kids. At this stage, it's inevitable that the PWC will raise objections .... obviously, if they are genuinely at work they'd normally be looked at sympathetically, but in many of these cases, the NRP will often have evidence (texts, emails) about contact where the ex has stated stuff like "don't see why I should help", "I'm not doing you a favour you bastard" and other such lovely epithets where it's clear that spite, not affordability or health is what's behind their attitude. I also know of PWCs who've pleaded poverty but whose objections have been ignored as they take 2 holidays a year etc.

I guess whether or not a shared travel order is made boils down to individual circumstances .... e.g. who moved, who created the distance, and why. Clearly it wouldn't be ordered if someone really can't drive but obviously where cases like these end up in court it's usually because of a lack of co-operation over contact with travel being just part of an overall problem. If the PWC was normal and fair, but with a genuine health problem, it's highly unlikely she'd end up in court "just" over not driving.

There is of course no guarantee that a judge will order shared travel but some do and I think it's definitely worth a shot. In our case, we definitely can't afford the petrol and the ex's lifestyle is head and shoulders above ours, so considering SHE made the move - along with false promises about meeting etc - I think it's more than fair that she should meet DP halfway. She certainly has far more disposable income than we do. However, like I said, my DP made the fatal mistake of allowing the situation to drag on for too long meaning that she could whinge about disruption to her routine and get away with it as DP had been "willingly" (so the court could claim) paying all travel expenses for years. The fact WE can't afford it - and we really can't - seems irrelevant, as does the effect upon OUR daughter as we "have" to spend money or else DP wouldn't see his kids.

So - if an order is made, the PWC would then technically be in breach of that if she started making excuses about why she couldn't meet. This is where the whole court order system falls down as very few judges seem willing to impose sanctions on PWCs who break orders. A lot of orders have penal notices attached but these are rarely used. You just hope that the threat of being taken back to court would be enough of a deterrent for the PWC to obey the order but really, the system stinks and IMO there is little real support for NRPs whose exes mess about with all aspects of contact.

Lasvegas · 20/05/2011 13:31

Catsmother, many thanks for that information. Both DH and I work full time, DH often overseas. His ex wife moved 350 miles away from family home. DH sometimes has to fly back to UK at 6pm in evening then get another flight to visit his kids 350 miles away. Ex wife doesn't work but she couldn't possible bring them to DH or even half way to a hotel. I feel so sorry for DH. But if court in practice cannot enforce an order there seems little point in souring the atmosphere for nothing.

Smum99 · 20/05/2011 14:56

I would certainly look to get a contact order that specifies travel. We have such an order, ex was furious, remonstrated to the judge (not a good move) but it now happens.

Lasvegas, go for an order, really does make a difference. Yes the ex can ignore it but most people don't and you can bring back the case if enforcement is an issue. Courts will recognise the travel your DH does for work and make allowances, on Health & Safety grounds some of the journeys that fathers are forced to do is crazy. PM if you want any further info. It was the best thing we did and I would never hesitate to recommend a court order when the resident parent is resisting contact.

catsmother · 20/05/2011 15:42

I agree with Smum99 ..... obviously there are some exes who do abide by court orders - as they should ! LV - Your DH wouldn't be any worse off by trying to establish a fairer way of accommodating that huge distance through court ... though I do appreciate what you say about "souring the atmosphere". Sadly, I think a lot of dads do hesitate about trying to force contact issues (including travel) for exactly that reason, which, when you think about it, is emotional blackmail through the backdoor.

Hopefully your DH's ex would be one of those who toed the line if she was ordered to help. No judge in their right mind would think that the burden of a 700 mile round trip should fall wholly upon one parent - especially if the PWC was the one to move. Personally - and I accept some people might think this a bit controversial - that going to court over something like this (after all attempts at negotiation/compromise have failed) isn't just about getting ex to do her fair share, but also about showing the children that dad isn't some irrelevant and distant figure in their lives. I think going to court - to try and establish some fair and workable solution - shows the children that their parents have an equal responsibility in facilitating contact and, as in many things in life, it's wrong and selfish for one stubborn party to create a difficult situation for someone else then sit back and say tough. Obviously, depending how old the kids are they might not fully appreciate this now, but it should dawn on them as they get older. I feel that dads who accept all the you-know-what that unreasonable exes throw their way are in danger of setting a bad example to their kids who then grow up thinking it's okay to be mean and selfish and do what you want no matter what the effects upon others. This kind of thing also reinforces the idea that mum is the most important parent and the only one entitled to call the shots.

As I said before admittedly my DP didn't get very far in a similar situation ..... maybe he had a bad judge ? ...... but I tend to think he left it far far too long and therefore appeared "willing" to do the thing he was in court complaining about as he'd been doing it for 7 years by the time of the final hearing. I couldn't blame the judge entirely for thinking why he hadn't attempted to rectify the situation sooner if he was that bothered about it - despite the fact that he "had" to do it if he wanted to see his kids at all. However, Smum is living proof that it is worth a try and I know a fair number of other people who have also been successful.

elastamum · 21/05/2011 15:14

Interesting thread. As a PWC whose ex moved 2 hrs drive away I wouldnt consider driving to meet him.

I work fulltime and have one overnight and day a fortnight without the children. It is the only time I get to go out or even get a lie in. He has asked me to spend 2hrs of that one day in the car for his benefit so he doesnt have to drive so far. Not surprisingly I said no. My solicitor thought he was taking the piss

aurorastargazer · 24/05/2011 17:01

i am also a pwc (parent with custody?)

we also had a contact order - at x's request - he ahs kept to less than 40%. i finally got a rota after 3 years of asking and surprise surprise he thinks dd will fit round him not the other way round. i didn't mean to rant sorry i shall go back and read the thread properly now Blush

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