I need DH to stick to his guns - advice please

[Petal02]

As most of the regulars will know, we have a very strict access rota for SS, who?s nearly 17, and leaves mainstream school at the end of May. Friday nights are a good example of the insanity: DH has to leave work early to collect SS from his mother?s at 4pm, whereas it would be far easier to pick him up at 5.30pm. Why don?t we change this? Because the rota states that Friday pick-ups happen at 4pm.

After Christmas, DH agreed that once SS finished his exams in May, it would be an appropriate time to cease the access rota, and have a flexible visiting arrangement. This was music to my ears, and DH assured me he?d told SS about it, and that it was all fine. This has been a real ?light at the end of the tunnel? to me, and it?s kept me going over the last few months.

Last night, SS was with us, and DH mentioned that he would be working away for a week in July. SS enquired if this would interrupt the access rota. I responded that as we would be on the flexible arrangements by then, it wouldn?t be an issue. You could have heard a pin drop, and SS asked when I meant by that. DH didn?t say a word. I cautiously said ?I thought your Dad had mentioned that when you finish your exams in May, that you?d be seeing us on a flexible basis.? SS replied that his Dad had suggested something like that for ?when he?s a bit older?, but hadn?t realised he meant imminently.

I was waiting for DH to jump in and overrule me, but he didn?t. He asked SS if he?d have any problems with this, SS hesitated and said he wasn?t sure, DH didn?t back-pedal ? and reassured him that if he wanted to visit us, he should let us know, and we?d arrange to collect him. SS was clearly not happy with this, and DH wrapped up the conversation and said we?d talk about it nearer the time.

SS then went upstairs, DH looked at me sheepishly. I really didn?t want a huge row. It was evident that DH had indeed spoken to SS about it, but apparently in very vague terms. DH went on to say that he definitely wants flexible arrangements, but ?it?s important we sell this carefully to SS, he doesn?t like change. Let?s leave it for now.? Admittedly SS doesn?t like change, but we?re not advocating anything enormous. He?s still welcome to visit, but simply on a flexible rather than rostered basis. He?s nearly 17, and if such minor changes traumatise him, then surely it?s time to toughen up slightly? Also, I don?t think should be SS?s decision whether or not we continue with the rota. DH is the parent, and whilst obviously he?ll want to be gentle with him, needs to be firm. I believe DH, when he says he doesn?t want to the rota any more, but I can tell he?s terrified of implementing even minor changes that may displease SS.

Later in the evening, I overheard SS/DH talking about this ? SS was concerned about the flexible proposal, and DH cautiously said all would be fine if we implement flexibility. So whilst it?s clear that DH is attempting to stay firm, I?m now quite worried about this. The thought of continuing a strict access rota for a school leaver is just bizarre. We have exactly the same days/timings that were put in place when SS was 10, and nothing has changed since. When SS had gone back upstairs, DH promised me we?d be dropping the rota, but said it has be approached very carefully. We weren?t arguing, and there weren?t raised voices, and I?m pleased at how I handled it. I?m just terrified that if SS puts up much resistance, DH will back down, and we?ll be stuck with this rota indefinitely. I know I need to proceed very carefully too; things have been easier at home just recently ? I believed the end was in sight regarding the rota, so I relaxed a bit. The thought of DH giving in is just incomprehensible.

Any advice please?

no thats just men for you (stupid )lol

Just playing devil's advocate here ....... but would it be really naughty of me to plan a few things throughout May/June/July, on weekends that would actually be access weekends if we were sticking to the schedule? Just to almost force some flexibility?

Please don't think I'm trying to stop DH from seeing SS, I'd never do that, but perhaps if we find ourselves in mid-May, with no signs of the access rota being relaxed, it may 'oil the wheels' if the rota HAS to change because me and DH are away doing x/y/z? I could then justify saying "SS, me and DH are away next weekend, but as we're now being flexible, would you like to come over tomorrow instead" (for example).

Any thoughts?

my first thought on that is - would you in turn be flexible if dh and ss both said "oh super, ss can come along".

if oyu are going to arrange things that are definitely not of interest/available to ss, then I am afriad if I were your dh/ss I would see it for what it is: trying to force the issue.

now, please believe me, I do know where you are coming from. I have just fielded a call from dsd as to "whose" easter it is - she is nearly 22 for crying out loud!

but as I said earlier in the thread, I think your ss needs a lot of support to get through this - he is clearly having difficulty processing the thought of stopping the rota. forcing it will not work, ime.

Actually, I think it's DH who has more difficulty in getting to grips with a 'no rota situation' than SS .......... !!!! SS would prefer to keep the rota out of sheer laziness, because it shields him from doing anything much with him life; whereas DH (mistakenly) fears SS may be traumatised for life if we make even the tiniest change to his routine, combined with the Disney trait of running everything to suit SS.

But I sympathise with the phone call you just received: a 22 yr old wanting to know whose Easter it is??????? Honestly, you couldn't make that up !!

So you think I'm better off not trying to force the issue? I'm at a loss to know what to do for the best, because I'm convinced that unless it's ME who starts to make changes, we'll get to the end of May and DH will conveniently 'forget' about flexibile visiting, and hope I've forgotten too - anything for a quiet life ........

hmm, again, as I said earlier in the thread, I do not htink your ss is sticking to this out of (pure) laziness.

a teenager who has no interest in sport/peers/anyhitng outside of his own parents/step parents is not usual. he needs help sorting this out - he woudl appear to have extreme social anxieties.

forcing anyhting when there is a chance of an issue is only goign to either: sweep the issue under the carpet, givign it plenty of room to fester, or make the issue worse.

someties these feeligns of extreme over-protectiveness, such as your dh shows towards his ds, are an indicator that we know somehting is not quite right, and that we are doing our absolute best to not make htings worse for the person involved: ie, your dh fears that chaging the rota will actually highlight that his ds is haivng some pretty extreme social difficulties.

I woudl put your energy towards working on getting him to recognise this - you will all end up much happier as a result.

re: my situation. dh and I know full well we are stuck with dsd thinking htis way until she has a proper job (at ni right now) or gets married.

it is the way she is.

we do now get (some) ad hoc visits, but not many. it all goes by the rota still, just as it always has done.

sometimes, when children are indoctrinated into this for most of their lives (my step children have been told for nearly 16 years that they can only see their dad at rota times, only talk to him at set times, only breath if they have their mother's permission ), and it is not so easy to change that.

step children are people too, doing their best; quite oftne haivng been brought up in less than ideal (psychologically speaking) circumstances.

we are now at a place where we do not necessarily run our family holiday according to whether dss/dsd are coming along. but we do try to - it is nice to see them. they are a part of this family. and if we can accomodate them too, we do (ie we were all set to be off on holiday this summer with dsd. we asked her for the 3 weeks dates, as always. and waited for the reply. w eowuld have booked using those dates - the ones given her by her mother - if it had turned ou ok. as it is, we had ot change the dates ot Easter instead, as part of the reason we are going to the States is for therapy for dd1, and the therapy dates at Easter suited us better.)

but we will still have 3 weeks in the summer, when dsd gets around to telling us when these are... so a lot of summer I cannot make proper plans for, unitl I know what those dates are.

"so a lot of summer I cannot make proper plans for, unitl I know what those dates are" - silverfrog I'm clearly not as patient as you are, but I can't, for the life of me, understand why you would tolerate this from an adult (your DSD). In life, if you don't step up and make decisions, you lose out. When is DSD ever going to learn this if everyone hangs around to accomodate her and jumps when she deigns to reply?

because dsd has her issues too.
some of them are social difficulties (she is AS), some of them stem form the fact that eg, she knows she will be going on holiday with her mum at some point htis summer, but if her mum won't tell her what those dates are, then dsd cannot know when she is free to come to see us (yes, her mum really does still play those kinds of games).

dsd is not able to stand up to her mum.

so, why shoudl we punish her for this?

she is part of our family, and we want to see her. it is incredbly frustrating, adn we do not always win in the patience stakes. but we try to hold off.

we have started giving them a date by which we need a response, and saying that we will book a holiday afte rthis date. but we have only started his in the last 18 monhs or so. before that she (and dss to an extent) was just too emotionally immature to understand it was not us wanting to exclude her.

we accomodate ehr because that is partly what happens in families. if dh could not find out form his work whether his holiday was approved or not, I wouldn't strop off and book a holiday without him.

it also isn't about when she "deigns" to reply. believe me, we are not sitting abot hanging on her every email/phonecall.

but give and take is what it is about, and being harsh with her would not have worked - it wold only have resulted in dhnot seeing his children. and that is not the aim of the exercise - the aim is to see them, and spend time as a family.

don't think that they do not get told (nicely) how difficult it can be waiting though. and that is slowly filtering through.

Silverfrog ? you used a great word: ?indoctrinated?, which sums the whole thing up perfectly. I think the word ?brainwashed? would also fit. SS has been indoctrinated/brainwashed that access takes place in a prescribed way, come hell or high water. And changing that mind-set is going to be a challenge. You raise interesting points about whether he actually may have some social problems/anxieties, but my gut feeling still diagnoses apathy. However, you?ve more experience with teenagers than me, and I don?t want to totally discount your views, because they sound sensible.

When DH and I initially discussed flexible visiting, we hoped that a more relaxed schedule would allow SS to do other things, ie friends/sport/job ? but thinking about it (and I bet DH has realised this too), SS has no interest in doing these things, so removing the rota won?t make him more inclined to participate, it will indeed highlight that there?s nothing else in his life beyond school/access.

If we spend access weekends pretending that trailing Rodney (great description, Suda) everywhere is quite normal, then DH and SS are happy, the atmosphere at home is calm, and life runs smoothly. But I feel we?re presently papering over the cracks, ignoring the elephant in the room.

Funnily enough, I actually enjoy having SS with us, when it?s for shorter visits, rather than the protracted Thur-Sun residentials, which are like pulling teeth. If we were flexible, SS could make far more of his time with his Dad, rather than following us round Tesco, he could come over when we?re actually doing something fun, something which he may miss out on, if it wasn?t an access weekend.

So part of me thinks I should just be grateful that he?ll most likely be off to Uni in two year?s time ? but the thought of another two years of this is beyond contemplation. Ignoring a glaring problem is something I?m not good at. Also, I fear for SS?s ?development? ? treating him like he?s six is not preparation for life.

Just a rather odd thought ,have you seen that episode of the comedy programme called outnumbered . It shows a rather large grey object in the corner of the room . It looks like one of the kids art projects that they are forever doing . Any way some one says to the dad , "what that " nodding at said object in the corner . Dad replys '' Oh thats the elephant in the room that we never mention . " sorry but it tickled me . Any way patience dear woman . if you try and engineer anything it will go wrong . Just leave it a while and maybe look for an offer (Groupon site is good ) for a hotel for just the two of you for a treat on a Saturday night . You wanted to surprise him but didnt want to upset SS so SS can come on Friday night but go back Sat early evening . And then pick him up again after Sunday lunch at nice hotel . See hoe logically stupid this seems . A few more of these over a six month period and he will see how stupid set weekends are . DH I meant as he is the one who needs to change not SS as he is just being compliant as to whats been happening . You just have to be nice smile and bide your time .

Just a rather odd thought ,have you seen that episode of the comedy programme called outnumbered . It shows a rather large grey object in the corner of the room . It looks like one of the kids art projects that they are forever doing . Any way some one says to the dad , "what that " nodding at said object in the corner . Dad replys '' Oh thats the elephant in the room that we never mention . " sorry but it tickled me . Any way patience dear woman . if you try and engineer anything it will go wrong . Just leave it a while and maybe look for an offer (Groupon site is good ) for a hotel for just the two of you for a treat on a Saturday night . You wanted to surprise him but didnt want to upset SS so SS can come on Friday night but go back Sat early evening . And then pick him up again after Sunday lunch at nice hotel . See hoe logically stupid this seems . A few more of these over a six month period and he will see how stupid set weekends are . DH I meant as he is the one who needs to change not SS as he is just being compliant as to whats been happening . You just have to be nice smile and bide your time .

sorry

Petal did you all have the chat this weekend?

Hi Allnew

When this was all raised last week, DH was keen that we ?let it lie? for the time being ? and I know that if I really bang on about it, that it will backfire. As the changes won?t take place til the end of May, I will have the ?family discussion? nearer the time.

However ? I did start ?paving the way? during the recent weekend ??..

This coming Sunday, DH?s sister, J, is coming up to visit (she lives at the other end of the country, and we don?t see her very often). It won?t be an access weekend, and it would never enter DH?s head to contravene the rota to enable SS to see his relatives. In DH?s defence: he?s equally protective over ?our? weekends as he is the ?access? weekends.

So my strategy with J?s visit is twofold: I really think it would be nice for SS to see her, regardless of the access rota. Also, it?s a gentle way of introducing the idea of flexibility to SS.

I said to DH, that it might be nice if SS came over for tea on Sunday, even though he?s not rostered to be with us, as it was a family occasion. DH seemed pleased at my suggestion. I also commented that as we?re now moving towards flexible visiting, it enables this sort of ?departure? from the rota, meaning SS can make better use of his visits. DH also seemed fine with this.

So I asked SS if he?d like to come over on Sunday, and see his Auntie J, even though it wasn?t his weekend. I also repeated what I?d said to DH, that our new flexible arrangements make this sort of thing possible. SS was absolutely fine about it.

So far so good, and a careful step in the right direction. However both SS and DH are happy with flexibility if it means slotting in an extra visit, the acid test will be if a night or weekend needs to be re-arranged or cancelled. Flexibility has to work both ways.

It seems that if I?m very pro-SS, and if I don?t challenge DH?s ?disney? behaviour, the more receptive DH becomes to my ideas. I made a huge effort last weekend, and I?ve suggested an extra visit next weekend, I?ve scored a good few brownie points, I?m playing the long came here.

I will keep you posted! But any advice/comments will be gratefully received!

I think that was a really sensible step forward. And I agree with all that you have said about needing changes, but can I just caution against the heavy three way conversation? Even confident teenagers with lots going on in their lives can feel overwhelmed when asked to stare the rest of ther lives in the face and talk about new arrangements. It is normal for a teenager to have mixed feelings as they make the transition into adulthood, seeking more independence on the one hand, but being daunted by it at the same time. And your SS may be more nervous than most about it.

Petal,

I think you are right to approach it in this positive way a few times first, but like you, I think you have to be aware that this might not work "both ways" as I am seeing in my own situation. But you are going the right way about making the changes - baby steps and all that.

Good luck with it all and if it does work out, I am sure you will enjoy DSS company more because it is not so "forced" on you.

I have read this entire thread and admire your patience! As a SM myself, I have had more than my fair share of tongue biting and playing the long game to get perfectly reasonable issues ironed out. (That's a whole other thread!)

However, the rigidity of the rota and the way they both keenly adhere to it makes me think that they each have some issues, be it AS, anxiety disorders, whatever. That seems to be the elephant in the room and it looks as if you are going to be the only one who highlights it's presence.

My DS is 14, is on the autistic spectrum and when seen together with his dad, it's obvious that dad is too. However, they have managed to become flexible about access arrangements over the last couple of years, largely by their own mutual agreement. Until then, DS stayed there every weekend but now he's got better things to do, or doesn't want to be bogged down with baby stuff (they have 2 LO's). I rarely get involved, except to say for example that perhaps he should go to dad's this weekend as he's not gone for the last two.

I do wonder how much your SS's mother is pulling the strings here? Do her and your DP not speak at all?

Thanks for your encouragement ladies.

Regarding a ?heavy three way conversation? ? I?m keen to avoid it being heavy. I was thinking down the lines of a dinner table conversation, asking ?how shall we make this work now that we?re being flexible? or rather than giving anyone the chance to state that flexibility won?t work, perhaps I should say ?SS, which days would you like to visit next week, as you no longer have to stick to the rota now your exams have finished.? At least that?s a positive opening to the conversation, as I?m extending an invitation to visit.

Or maybe a 3-way conversation isn?t the best option ? maybe I should ensure DH talks to SS about it; my only fear is that DH will back down more easily if I?m not present. It seems bizarre to need a careful strategy to implement something like this.

I don?t think SS is autistic. He?s simply got used to being wrapped in cotton wool by his father, and I can understand why he?s reluctant to leave his cocooned, pink fluffy existence. DH is so desperate to hang onto his son, that he?s terrified of anything that may rock the boat, and he?s made a rod for his own back over the years ? I don?t think there?s anything more to it than that. I know that DH is keen to implement flexibility, however I suspect his desire to indulge SS is a stronger ?pull? and I need to tread very carefully here.

DH hasn?t spoken to his ex for nearly four years. I?ve no idea about her views on the rota, however she?s always been keen to send SS to us as much as possible.

I know DH would prefer it if SS were driving any changes; he wishes SS would reject the rota on the grounds of sport/friends/job etc. However it?s one of those ?chicken before egg? situations ? there?s nothing on the horizon to break the pattern, but unless the pattern is broken he doesn?t stand much change of seeing friends, playing sport etc, because of the distance between the two homes.

The options are quite stark. If this all goes belly-up, I either accept living with the rota for a further 2 years, or I leave. I would NEVER ask DH to choose between me and his son, but I?ve been tempted to say ?it?s me or the rota.? I know DH loves me very much, but there?s a small part of me that worries he would let me walk away, rather than tamper with the rota. And who in their right mind would leave a lovely guy over an access rota? It really would be cutting off my nose to spite my face. However another two years of this is beyond comprehension.

tbh what really worries me rather than an extra 2 years, is the prospect of a rota being potentially indefinite. After reading silverfrog's posts, I'm now convinced that DSS1 will still be on the rota well into his 20's while he's still at university.............hang on, where is that cliff and I'll just jump off it now

Allnew: ditto! I suspect that my SS will want to have access weekends during uni holidays - unhealthy or what ??????

Some 16 year olds are mature, some aren't. Some are ready for independence some aren't.

At his age I wasn't and so left home at 24.

If it was me, and a partner (I perceived) was making me choose, I'd choose my children.

I'm a single parent and this sort of scenario is part of the reason, my partner would be prioritized behind the children. There is another similar thread to this on here, and I can understand where the dad is coming from in that one as well.

I'm not asking SS to be totally independent, just that he has a relationship with his father that doesn't require a rota.

Allnew - April?s going to be an interesting month in terms of access. I confess that when I realised SS was supposed to be with us over Easter, meaning we?d be hanging aimlessly round the house from Fri-Tues, wasting our precious Easter break, I remembered that God had blessed me with a Mastercard, and so I booked DH and I on a short break. DH was so pleased with the plans, he never questioned if it clashed with access.

The weekend after Easter is also a bank holiday, due to the Royal Wedding ? so I need to plan this very carefully, to ensure we don?t end up with any extended residentials. I?m going to suggest a ?little and often? approach. I fully accepted that DH had a son when we first got together, however I didn?t anticipate his apathy would rule our lives to such an extent.

I must sound awful ? but I have to be two steps ahead of everyone else to ensure minimum suffocation.

I know what you mean about having to be two steps ahead. It's bleeding ridiculous, but such is the reality of being a SM!

For us the additional problem is that ideally on bank hol weekends for example, we would go camping or something. But really for it to be worthwhile it has to be 2 nights, and the DSSs should really be able to come with us if it coincides with an access weekend. However, the control freak that is the childrens' mother would not allow any such arrangement as it is not within the boundaries of the access agreement written when DSS was 6 (now 15). And god help the DSSs if going on a trip with us meant they had to miss a badminton lesson on Saturday - she would go on and on and make their life unbearable. So we really are prevented from doing normal family stuff when DSSs are around. I think people that aren't step-parents have no grasp of this whatsoever.

Posters who aren't steps tend to think that having step-children around is the same as having your own children and doing family stuff. Well frankly it isn't. If they were our children, we could freely make arrangements for any weekend of the year, which suited us all. However under the law of this country their mother is responsible for all their movements (and DSSs are too apathetic to challenge this), and so we simply do not operate as a normal family and arrange family things.

So yes, I end up feeling annoyed, like Petal, that the access rota rules our lives, and frankly the sooner it ends the better. But I see no light at the end of the tunnel.

That's a good point Allnew, we don't operate as a normal family unit either. In fact I'm at a loss to know who benefits when it comes to blended families, and children whose parents live apart.