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Do you think dressage is cruel?

71 replies

mummytelling · 04/08/2024 12:30

I am watching this thinking these horses do not look comfortable at all and am aware of things that have been uncovered in the past. How is this still allowed to continue? Surely a horse doesn't behave this way without some form of cruelty or coercion in training?

OP posts:
ForGreyKoala · 05/08/2024 06:16

Polarnight · 05/08/2024 00:32

Animals shouldn't be kept as pets either

Yes, let's just set them free and see how they get on? Is it a full moon or something, there are some stupid comments on MN at the moment. Hmm

Cangar · 05/08/2024 06:20

Meadowfinch · 04/08/2024 15:42

No. If you've ever tried to get half a ton of chestnut gelding to do something it doesn't want to, you'll know it isn't cruel.

😁

I can’t believe people are still using this line. Of course you can get to do things they don’t want to. Watch the Charlotte Dujardin video to see how.

I don’t think dressage should be banned by the way (I believe it can be done ethically) but it’s so odd people believe horses are somehow immune to cruelty due to their size. Elephants are also subjected to horrible treatment to force them to do things. Pain is a very powerful motivator even to very large animals.

PigeonFeatherInMyChair · 05/08/2024 06:23

The problem with the take that 'you cannot get a horse to do something it doesn't want to do' is that we all saw the video where duJardin did exactly that.

Plus, there is a huge history of horses being forced to do things they cannot have wanted to. Like run headlong into warfare...

cryinglaughing · 05/08/2024 06:32

I have been on a yard with an ex-Olympian who was still training her horses to a high level.
She cared for her horses and their welfare but she was a hard rider. Hard on their mouths, hard on what she expected of them. If she squeezed her legs, she expected them to hop up into the next speed immediately. If that didn't happen, they got a good crack of the whip, or sometimes 2 as she'd ride with 2.

I always thought her horses had a tough, unforgiving training sessions. They never get to feel the nuzzle of another horse as they had to go out alone to minimise the chance of injury.
Their lives were pretty joyless from my eyes.

gerispringer · 05/08/2024 06:34

Comparing the horse to a boat is ridiculous and demeaning. The horse is doing most of the work in these kind of sports, that’s why they are worth a ton of money. The riders may have to have strong thigh muscles, but the fact that men and women of any size and age compete in the sam events speaks volumes. I’m for getting rid of animals in Olympics, we don’t have dog dancing, so why have horse dancing and jumping.

LameBorzoi · 05/08/2024 07:28

gerispringer · 05/08/2024 06:34

Comparing the horse to a boat is ridiculous and demeaning. The horse is doing most of the work in these kind of sports, that’s why they are worth a ton of money. The riders may have to have strong thigh muscles, but the fact that men and women of any size and age compete in the sam events speaks volumes. I’m for getting rid of animals in Olympics, we don’t have dog dancing, so why have horse dancing and jumping.

Ha ha, have you ever ridden a horse? It's incredibly physically demanding. Even a short ride can leave an unfit person physically shattered.

BlahBlahBaa · 05/08/2024 07:52

I think the other thing that’s relevant is that for a horse to get to this level, they need to have the temperament to suit it. You don’t just start with a random “generic good quality athletic horse” and train it into the discipline you fancy - different horses enjoy doing different things and youve got to match them up.

In my life I’ve had horses that would be thrilled never to get in the arena again (XC/fun ride/happy hackers), horses that can give or take the arena but “light up” when they see a jump (SJer) and one dear animal who hated hacking, tolerated jumping but was never as relaxed as when we were in the arena and he was being told exactly where to put his feet and how to move. He loved his training, loved the process and built a fantastic musculature to support the movements through the hours and hours or practice. At this level, if the horses don’t love what they do they’d never be successful - it’s not enough to simply be correct or obedient, they need that spark that comes from their mind being as focused on the goal as their riders’. Not to say of course that cruel training doesn’t exist, it clearly does and I wish there was an easy way to ban it from the sport. But I will argue all day and night that it’s not fundamentally cruel.

HoppingPavlova · 05/08/2024 08:02

I think riding on the back on any animal with a piece of metal through their mouthes to force them this way or that is cruel

What about the handle harnesses put on the dogs that assist the blind? Are they cruel, would the dog prefer to be doing something else like being free to frolic in a meadow with other doggies? If you take it all down the line we shouldn’t use any animal for any sort of ‘work’ nor keep them as pets, there should be wild animals only doing as nature intended and being eaten by one another.

LameBorzoi · 05/08/2024 12:12

HoppingPavlova · 05/08/2024 08:02

I think riding on the back on any animal with a piece of metal through their mouthes to force them this way or that is cruel

What about the handle harnesses put on the dogs that assist the blind? Are they cruel, would the dog prefer to be doing something else like being free to frolic in a meadow with other doggies? If you take it all down the line we shouldn’t use any animal for any sort of ‘work’ nor keep them as pets, there should be wild animals only doing as nature intended and being eaten by one another.

Exactly. And horses, like dogs, are domesticated. They are not wild animals. They can live as feral animals, but they are pretty tough lives.

As a rider, you don't force horses to do things. You do, however, have to be in charge - for the safety of horse and rider.

XelaM · 05/08/2024 12:37

leeverarch · 04/08/2024 13:11

Have you ever tried to get a horse to do something it doesn't want to do? No.

They are a prey animal, and fear induces a flight response. It doesn't induce the sort of controlled moves that dressage horses do. They don't think like humans (or indeed dogs, come to that), and are not able to associate punishment with the demand to do something. They just become frightened and try to run away.

Most of the moves carried out by dressage horses (and those such as performed by the Spanish Riding School of Vienna) are ones they are already physically capable of, and will often do of their own accord anyway. All the years of repetitive training does is to ask them to do it in a co-ordinated manner.

We have two horses and I have never seen either do any of the dressage dance moves in the field (or anywhere) 🤷‍♀️ so I never understood people claiming dressage was what horses naturally do. Personally, I find it very boring and the judging is bias as everyone pretty much does the same moves. At least with showjumping it's pretty objective when a mistake is made.

LameBorzoi · 05/08/2024 12:50

XelaM · 05/08/2024 12:37

We have two horses and I have never seen either do any of the dressage dance moves in the field (or anywhere) 🤷‍♀️ so I never understood people claiming dressage was what horses naturally do. Personally, I find it very boring and the judging is bias as everyone pretty much does the same moves. At least with showjumping it's pretty objective when a mistake is made.

Many of the advanced movements are natural to stallions, so if you don't handle stallions often, you might not see them. Stallions will passage at each other as a show of strength. I had a horse that would capriole for fun at the beginning of a ride, much to the alarm of those around us .

Balloonhearts · 05/08/2024 13:02

No. Taught kindly and properly dressage is not cruel and honestly have you ever tried to force a horse to do anything? Not easy. I tried to remove an escapee from the hay shed once. Didn't want to go, had to be lured back to his stable with a tub of molasses. I was getting nowhere trying to force him. Full weight leaning back on his lead rope and he barely seemed to notice I was there.

I take riding lessons at a school who specialises in competition.

They have several retired horses there who are used to teach beginners and were very successful in their youth. One show jumped and can be found waiting eagerly at the gate the second he sees poles being set up. Gets a right face on if they aren't for him.

He was actually fully retired when he turned 21 only to be brought back into work a year later because he was miserable. Stood at the fence all day watching the others being ridden, it broke your heart to leave him out there. 12 acres of pasture and he stood at the fence watching everyone else work.

He'll probably be ridden until his health dictates that he can't and then decision made as to his future because taking it easy in the pasture was not good for him at all.

He taught me to ride, that horse, and to jump. I learn on a share horse now but miss my lessons with him. He is a kind soul and I absolutely adore him. He is now 23 and mostly only does hacking so about 2 hours work a day but is kept fit and does a showjumping workshop type thing once a month so still does what he loves and can still clear a triple with the best of them!

Another who still works in the school did dressage and can occasionally be found doing piaffes in the field if he sees someone doing it in the school. I'll try and catch him on my phone next time I see him do it. He only retired due to an injury. He's sound but shouldn't be overworked so teaching suits him.

Again he was not happy when out of work recovering. Spent 3 months on box rest and was a liability during that time. Anyone who went close enough got kicked. The minute he was being worked again all that stopped and back to being placid. He's happy. Sometimes still takes students to low level competitions. Intro and Prelim usually but sometimes does more complicated ones with certain students. He thrives on the atmosphere and being the centre of attention, it's the highlight of his day.

And they're far from the only ones. Most have a competitive streak, even in a race across a field when hacking. The oldest boy at 28 yo looks sideways at the flashy little show ponies as if to say 'I'm not losing to you, short stuff. ' and takes off like a rocket. Never seen him move so fast outside of dinner time! He likes to be first, likes to be fastest, likes to be best. Its a high, I guess.

Horses like to have a job. For them it's all a big game. They do these movements to music, the humans cheer and give them attention and treats and fuss over them.

There's a YouTuber Amelia Newcoombe who has a video on how to teach these movements kindly and gently. It should never involve hitting. I believe she does it by touching their feet with a whip and using a vocal cue, a cluck when they lift their foot. The horses I see taught, are taught very similarly. Associate a vocal cue with a movement and reward when they respond.

ChiefEverythingOfficer · 05/08/2024 13:10

I have ridden all my life. I tried dressage as an adult and can categorically say that there was NEVER cruelty involved.

Quite the opposite. To be a good dressage team, the horse and rider need to be incredibly in tune with one another. Often almost imperceptible shifts of weight distribution is all that is needed to initiate movement and gait changes. Gentle hands are absolutely key. It takes years of training to get this right.

I couldn't get it right, my right left brain coordination is abysmal. So I gave up.

Dispel any myths you have in your head about horse coercion. I have never met one who could be coerced. They will just tell you to fuck off with one big buck. 75kg rider v 800kg horse they ain't dumb, they know who is boss.

ChiefEverythingOfficer · 05/08/2024 13:20

Cangar · 05/08/2024 06:20

I can’t believe people are still using this line. Of course you can get to do things they don’t want to. Watch the Charlotte Dujardin video to see how.

I don’t think dressage should be banned by the way (I believe it can be done ethically) but it’s so odd people believe horses are somehow immune to cruelty due to their size. Elephants are also subjected to horrible treatment to force them to do things. Pain is a very powerful motivator even to very large animals.

That is such an horrific thing she did. Honestly I struggle to see why she would have bothered. It is just far easier to partner with a horse well suited to the task.

I have never encountered a horse that responded to abuse - probably because I adore them and would never ever hurt or frighten a horse or any animal. It takes all types - on balance I like the dressage. The jumping/steeplechase and racing - they can go. Too much chance for a physical injury for the horse for my liking.

DizzyBumble · 05/08/2024 13:34

ShoehornSheryl · 04/08/2024 17:16

I used to ride horses.

all dressage riders are doing is improving their skills. All riders walk, trot, and canter their horses. It doesn’t require whipping and punishments.

these Olympic grade horses are athletes and are treated as such. They’re worth millions. They have the best vet care, the best feed, water therapies, the very best tack, rugs, they receive massages, regular farrier visits and exemplary dental care…

they are not abused. They are highly trained.

focus your attention on those stuck in a field in the middle of January getting rained on with no rug, surrounded by mud and no grass, a bale of hay if they’re lucky, dreaming of the Grand Prix horse’s heated stable, red light therapy and daily grooming.

Edited

Not all are treated as such - do you know the sad story of Totalis ?

I'm not saying all are treated this way but I think it's good welfare is being addressed & other dressage riders should certainly be looked at, not just those in the UK

Buttons232 · 06/08/2024 08:43

I have three horses but for personal reasons, thoroughly dislike the competitive side of riding. I find it erodes my enjoyment of riding and horsemanship. Classical dressage isn't cruel, it's all about working horses correctly for strength, flexibility, precision and health. It's like a gym session for the horse and is healthy and beneficial for them. The dressage seen in the eventing was more along those lines, albeit at a very high level. The pure dressage you saw in the rest of the Olympics has gone beyond that and seemingly abandoned some of the principles of it in favour of flashy, crowd-pleasing moves. Some of it is a bit suspect. It's certainly not natural movement for a horse. Sadly, the regulating bodies seem to favour the flashy, not-so-kind movements when dishing out scores, and that's where the problem lies. Blue, bleeding tongues, overarched necks and massively elevated legs are not kind to horses. However, horses are highly trainable, athletic and intelligent and many will give their all despite pain and discomfort. I think there is undoubtedly cruelty or at least very harsh training techniques within the sport but also some very kind and amazing trainers.

DizzyBumble · 06/08/2024 15:55

Looks like Carl Hester has now retired. I really hope it's not because something is going to come out about him

PigeonFeatherInMyChair · 10/08/2024 20:53

Though if this thread when I read this article...

www.independent.co.uk/news/world/europe/olympics-horses-dressage-showjumping-welfare-b2594129.html

WhereTheSpiritMeetsTheBones · 10/08/2024 21:17

So frustrating when people who have no idea about horses, how they behave, how their looked after or trained chime in with "horse sport is cruel' as they literally have no clue what they are talking about.
Some trainers/owners treat horses cruelly and it should be punished severely.
Horses have their own minds and the point is to build a bond with them. Get on a horse and try to get it to walk in a straight line, or stop if it doesn't want to. Or, try and lead a horse somewhere it doesn't want to go 🤣
To get to Olympic level the horses have to want to do the sport as well. The majority of them love what they do, love performing. They can go the other way and have terrible days. A good rider/trainer should know their horse inside out and help protect them.

HauntedbyMagpies · 10/08/2024 21:23

The horses LOVE IT!

In the Olympics, after a horse went on, the cameras followed them into the cooling area and the horse began dancing again! If their ears are bent forward, they're happy!

HauntedbyMagpies · 10/08/2024 21:35

I should also add, Horses love any form of movement. I can see why people think it's cruel but it's really not. Those horses are treated like nobility! Some of them even travel with their own 'pets'
Check out Air Horse One! It wasn't used for the Olympic horses but they have in the past.

https://eu.usatoday.com/story/travel/flights/2016/10/26/tex-sutton-air-horse-one/92782198/

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