Discuss your views of the Scottish Referendum with the UK government NOW CLOSED

[MichelleMumsnet]

With fewer than 200 days to go until the Scottish referendum, UK Government has produced the latest edition, in a series of information packs, focussing on money and the economy in the context of the independence debate.

Read more: Scottish independence referendum: Money and the economy.

UK Government wants to find out what Mumsnetters' views are of the Scottish referendum coming up in September. When it comes to the prospect of Scotland going it alone and possible impacts on the economy, like changes in currency and taxes, what are your views? Whether you're Scottish or not we'd love to hear your thoughts.

Danny Alexander, Chief Secretary to the Treasury says, "As part of the UK the Scottish economy is growing, inflation is down and more people are in work. By remaining part of the UK, Scottish industry and jobs will be protected by the generous freeze on duties on spirits and the £3bn tax break for oil and gas industries we announced at the Budget, as well as the big cuts in income tax helping 2 million Scottish workers.

This new pack sets out some key facts people in Scotland need to know before the referendum in September. I urge everyone to read up on the facts and understand the true benefits being part of the United Kingdom brings to Scotland."

Mumsnet will be hosting various content and activity in the run up to the referendum from all sides of the debate, so do keep a look out for these in the coming months.

Thanks,

MNHQ

I don't want to get involved in another internet debate on independence because there are always so many people trying to shout the loudest that people with sensible questions and concerns get ignored. What I will say though, is if you live in Scotland, join a library and read read read everything you can lay your hands on regarding the referendum. You certainly won't get the facts from Westminster.

I believe Scotland has the right to self determination but I hope they choose to stay.

My whole family history is in Scotland and I am the only one born elsewhere.

It will make me sad if we don't stay together.

Yup that's kinda the point SchoolChoice.

Hear hear Jenny.

Schoolchoices define "jobs of that quality"

I can assure you "quality" jobs exist outside of London, and shock horror, in Scotland too.

Is >£150k quality enough for you? DH earns at this level, and I know a handful of others who do too, and we are well outside the wealthier central belt (Glasgow/Edinburgh).

The funny thing is, our DS1 is likely to earn at a similar level and is about to move to London after graduating this summer - the cost of living and housing completely blows away the higher wages people tend to earn.

Case in point, we were idly looking at houses for sale in our area and in our price range, for £600k we could buy an actual castle with a couple of acres of grounds ... Or a 2 bed flat in London for our DS (we are not doing either, it was a thought experiment!).
DS1 was himself commenting that if he wants a decent standard of living, he'll be moving north again in the future.
Quality of living and cost of living mean a wage may be worth a lot less than you think.

London is not the centre of the universe you know!

No it isn't I'm afraid raw coconut.
Not that that is the point. You don't have to stick to London to make the point. There are more high earning jobs in each of Birmingham and Manchester, for example, than there are in the whole of Scotland. Especially if the quoted figure that there are only 160k net taxpayers in Scotland is anywhere near true. In fact even if it is wrong by a factor of 200% it is still shockingly bad.

No matter how many lochs and heather covered hills you have that isn't enough to build a self sustaining economy

Outside of London, Scotland has a greater GVA per capita income than any other region within the UK.

And that's without taking any oil or North Sea gas revenue into account.

I'm English so my thoughts don't count for anything on referendum day, however... When I look at the bloody turmoil in other parts of the world I feel very proud of the UK as a whole. We have built a country to be proud of: one that allows dissent, encourages debate and promotes cultural diversity.

I would be very sad to see Scotland leave the union but if it does stay, I think there needs to be a time for reflection on how we might achieve a better, fairer union. It's obvious that many (most?) people in this country, not just Scots, feel disconnected from the Parliament and government in Westminster, and that such feelings of disconnect are driving nationalism and in-fighting. We should be proud of our various cultural identities but I feel that we lack the confidence to take that pride and use it to forge closer links rather than resorting to insular tribalism.

On a more immediate level, I am concerned at the lack of clear policies, planning and independent, firm statistics. How can Scots choose when they are voting blind?

The claim made recently was that an independent Scotland would be as wealthy as New Zealand. Speaking as a New Zealand resident, that is no recommendation for independence. It is a poorer country than the UK by some stretch.

However, my view is that the economic and political arguments are a complete red herring. Economically, iScotland would be fine. However, this debate wouldn't be happening at all if it wasn't for good bigoted old-fashioned national consciousness, which both the SNP and Labour have deliberately stoked up for votes over the past few decades. The driving force behind Scottish independence is simple, old-fashioned nationalism. This is evidenced in two ways. Firstly, blaming everything on "London" or "Westminster", which is nothing more than a proxy for "England". Secondly, Scotland is overwhelmingly white and Scottish and, if independent, would be an old-fashioned nation state, predicatably with highly-shared values. This "civic nationalism" that proponents of independence like to promote is nothing more than the ethnic values of that group. Thirdly, the anger and resentment and claims of bullying provoked by the quite reasonable points that Scotland would be denied a currency union etc etc are not a reasonable response - they come from the visceraliality of nationalism.

I am confident that the majority of Scots will recognise this nationalism for what it is. Unfortunately - and as I remember from my time living in Scotland - many won't.

Yes, Toad, I hate nationalism, especially the more petty, mean-minded and malicious elements.

But people in Scotland look at what is happening south of the border and don't like it! So there is, I hope, a majority (?) of Yes voters who do, sincerely, want to take the opportunity of building a new country. And we look to the smaller Scandinavian countries as rather desirable models.

But I think (sorry to repeat myself) that we can have our cake and eat it. We can enjoy the security of belonging to the ancient Union, while working within it - as we are already - to build a new nation (under DevoMax, which will follow a no vote). With our own tax, education, legal, housing, benefits and health care systems, we can have a very real chance of affecting what really matters to most of us in our daily lives. At the same time we would enjoy the international prestige and stability of the UK, if that matters to you.

But more, even more than that, we can, and should, be working hard within the UK to show the numpties south of the border that things do not have to be the way they are in rUK. We need to show them an example they can follow, and then, maybe they will get rid of the Tories, and things will get better for all of us.

Toad that is simply not fair.

This graphic demonstrates one of the reasons Westminster gets the finger pointed - www.buzzfeed.com/jimwaterson/britain-is-run-by-mps-from-the-south-east-of-england?s=mobile (and Danny boy hardly counts, he's my MP and you can be assured he'll be moved somewhere safer next election). Scots are not represented by Westminster, our vote does not mean anything in elections and that's got nothing to do with the English - it's a simple and terribly unfair fact.

Scotland is a multicultural country with much less of the thinly-veiled racism promoted by UKIP. There are vibrant Asian and Eastern European communities which are genuinely integrated. There's very little of the claymore-wielding nationalism you're alluding to. Have you ever been to Glasgow?

I also can't understand why you dismiss the anger Scots feel as mere nationalism, while admitting it's reasonable. A huge bitterness comes from being patronised, fobbed off and ripped off. That's not nationalism. That's the pain of injustice. It does bind us together as a nation but the anger is because we're being denied something that's rightfully ours, by people we didn't elect, who speak to us like we're fools.

www.buzzfeed.com/jimwaterson/britain-is-run-by-mps-from-the-south-east-of-england?s=mobile

I'd like the campaigning to be more positive, but inevitably because the Yes campaign are coming out with aspiration after aspiration with very little fact to base it on, anyone refuting their arguments is seen as negative.

We got a Yes campaign leaflet through telling us people would be £600 better off - as everything that depends on still needs to be negotiated they could pick any number they want, but if you question it you are labelled as 'part of Project Fear'.

I'm voting no, because I believe we are stronger together. Also, on a purely selfish point, it is very likely that my job would move south.

What I don't see is how we are being 'patronised, fobbed off and ripped off', Cashew? Who speaks to us as if we're fools?

I think we are respected and even envied by the rUK. I think they look to us to provide a model of how a society can be organised. Lots of my English chums have expressed a wish to live up here.

Injustice, yes, because we have to put up with governments we haven't voted for. But so do most people in the rUK - it's not as if any of us voted for the Coalition. The answer, imo, is to make our system more democratic, our government more accountable and transparent, and for more people to vote. If Scotland was independent, it would get a chance to build a more democratic system, agreed, but would it actually happen? Why do you think we would be more democratic after independence? At the moment, a Scottish vote affects the lives of people all over the UK.

But I think (sorry to repeat myself) that we can have our cake and eat it. We can enjoy the security of belonging to the ancient Union, while working within it - as we are already - to build a new nation (under DevoMax, which will follow a no vote)

The problem is, devo-max is not on the table. Westminster took that referendum choice away from us. Westminster has also already taken back a devolved power from Scotland. At scottish labours recent conference they presented their proposals for further devolution, which were laughable. The current Westminster government has made no moves to devolve further powers to Scotland, why would this suddenly change with a no vote?

The options on the ballet paper are only independence or not. Vote not and we get the more of the same, even if labour makes up the next parliament they are fairly indistinguishable from the Tories ( see their voting on bedroom tax, welfare cap etc)

With a yes vote the Scots get to choose, and all the indications are that they would choose a model more aligned to for eg Scandinavian countries. But what ever we choose it will be because a majority of Scots chose it, not a majority from SE England.

ItsAllGoingToBeFine, I think things would be different after a no vote, as I have said above, and we will have a lot more clout.

The independence issue is not going to go away, even if we vote no. The Westminster parliament will be forced to give us more powers.

I agree with your last point. Yes, we would choose our own government. But that government would be under the same pressures as the Westminster one is now.

For us to have any meaningful influence over the decisions that affect us in our daily lives, we need to know what decisions are being taken, who takes them, when they are being taken etc, and we need to participate.

In Scotland at the moment, it is as much a case of who you know and being in the right place at the right time as it is everywhere else. That's not going to change with independence.

*ItsAllGoingToBeFine, I think things would be different after a no vote, as I have said above, and we will have a lot more clout.

The independence issue is not going to go away, even if we vote no. The Westminster parliament will be forced to give us more powers*

Why do you think this?

Yes, we would choose our own government. But that government would be under the same pressures as the Westminster one is now

Of course, but it is a lot easier (and cheaper) to run a country of 6 million than 60 million. There are also obvious savings to be had in I Scotland eg Trident. And it is all about priorities and viewpoints. Westminster is cutting the deficit by slashing everything which affects poorest most. Of course another way to cut the deficit is to grow the economy eg increased childcare provision.

Independence won't be easy, there will be tough years ahead, but Scotland has all the successful ingredients to be extremely successful

For those who think there is 'not enough information', the facts are out there. We have tried to make everything as accessible as possible, which is difficult considering the bias of the media. Start with #indyref on Twitter.
For those who think Scotland is too poor - our GDP even without oil is the same as France.
But it isn't about money. It's about democracy. It's about Scotland having the chance to vote in a government that can bring the changes that Scotland needs to grow.
It is indeed sad that those outwith Scotland cannot vote, but it is very important that the people who live in Scotland are the ones who decide. They are the ones who are affected most.
Finally, saying 'no' because you hate Salmond is exactly the same thing as voting 'no' because you love Cameron.

I can't understand why you would think that it's not a vote for Salmond, after all it will be the SNP who negotiate the terms of independence in the event of a yes vote. He'll have us stitched up tighter than a miser's purse, in his socialist utopia. Do you really really want a state guardian interfering in your family life, ensuring that you toe the line according to SNP doctrine and policy?

I am English so have no involvement and not much knowledge of this but my gut feeling is that Scotland should be independent. Scotland and England are very different in what they want and how they want to do things so independence would hopefully be an advantage to both.

I have felt recently there is too much bullying from our government (on the currency, Europe, etc) and they should focus their campaign on positives of remaining in union rather than threats.

I agree its about democracy weesingersco. The current system of first past the post is totally undemocratic. Fewer than 100 seats change hands each election, and parties select candidates to run in safe seats.

But there is no appetite for electoral reform in the UK. It suits the main parties to keep the status quo.

I hope a large yes vote (sadly I think it won't be large enough) will inspire a debate on democracy even if independence isn't achieved, and the type of government we receive might be at least marginally representative of the electorate. But I think that is too much to hope for.

after all it will be the SNP who negotiate the terms of independence in the event of a yes vote.

Not correct. It will be negotiated by representatives from all interested parties

And the latest, there will be currency union if we agree to keep Trident. Seriously? I mean, seriously? Keep the debt and WMD, and they think this is an offer that'll stop the Yes campaign?

www.theguardian.com/politics/2014/mar/28/independent-scotland-may-keep-pound?CMP=twt_gu

OldLady, currency union or not - the only thing I take away from that Guardian article is: surprise, surprise, it's not clear what would happen to the currency. It's all speculation; there are no facts.

And in answer to your question, ItsAllGoingToBeFine, here's a quote from the article: 'Darling believes Better Together needs to do more than win the referendum – it needs to kill off independence with an emphatic win.' It's not going to do that, imo, not even with a no vote. That is what is going to give us the power to dictate terms to Westminster after a no vote. The UK govt will have to keep us happy or we'll be having referendums every 5 years or so - with the constant threat of a Nationalist win.

We might not get the chance to fashion our country in our own image, but we will be able to put a lot of pressure on the UK govt, not just to make things better for us, but for everyone in the Union. A lot of people in rUK already feel disgruntled by the no tuition fees in Scotland, the free care for the elderly etc etc. These are social changes which they will soon be demanding too. I hope. If they've got any sense.