DS14 permanently excluded for drugs

[winterrabbit]

DS is 14 (year 10, diagnosed with ADHD) and was excluded for 5 day last week for bringing edibles into school and eating them with another friend. We've been told the exclusion will be permanent but the school is trying to arrange a managed move to avoid this. Although I've been in email contact with the Head of Year 10 all week, I haven't received any paperwork from the school nor had contact with the headteacher. (it's now been over 5 days since DS has been excluded). Obviously I'm worried sick and trying to work out next steps. The Head of Year 10 said that they'll give it another week to find a managed move before they'll permanently exclude him. I have no idea what the likelihood of finding a school that we're happy with is so can't work out if that is likely to be an option. Obviously this is disastrous for DS as he had just started his GCSE courses, however, this is the latest in a long line of things he has done although nothing related to drugs although he has had several 2 day exclusions for vaping, another for truancy and others for not following instructions. The school have tried to support him and were in the process of submitting an EHCP for him to get extra funding which they'll now submit next week. I'm not hopeful here but I wondered if there was point in trying to ask the head for another chance (I actually already asked the Head of Year 10 this and she said no) or even appealing the decision, but I can't see how we'd be successful given that drugs were involved. DS just stands to lose so much as he could end up either in a PRU or a much worse school where he'll probably continue on a downward spiral, not to mention all the stress and alienation that goes with a permanent exclusion. He knows he has done wrong but obviously it's too late now. There is also the status of the edibles that he brought into school. I've tried to get him to tell me where he got them and claims he and a friend found them in a hedge. The school does not seem to have retained the packaging so I am not sure how they can definitely establish they are edibles of the illegal variety although DS told me that he and his friend felt "high" so it sounds like they work. I know I am clutching at straws but wanted to ask for constructive thoughts and advice. Anyone looking to have a dig or make mean comments, please DON'T!

Thanks That'snotmycar. Any idea where I can get help appealing the decision/

Also, do you have any information on how managed moves work? We had DS's review at his MM school after the first 6 weeks and it's not going very well. Lots of minor things like wearing his coat indoors, not wearing uniform properly, being on his phone in class, not doing enough work in class (although I checked his books and I thought he'd done loads, for example, he wrote 1.5 pages in English whereas other kids had written 2 or 3 pages apparently) and a couple of big things like refusing to stop reading a book when asked to (!) and he and two other boys jumping in a lift which put it out of action. He seems to think he's being held to a higher standard than he was at his old school because he is on a MM. I also feel like I can't push for more help with his ADHD as it's a MM and they're not really obliged to do much. Also, in order to give him a fresh start, they didn't tell any of the teachers about his background or his ADHD which has made it a lot harder to get any support for him. He goes back in the new year but I fear it'll only be a matter of weeks before they send him back to his old school who will then permanently exclude him. So difficult to know what to do. I will appeal the ECHP decision, of course. In the meantime, 2 of the other schools I applied for look like they may take him. They are nowhere near as good academically as the school he is at but it's a place, at least, and because it's a proper place rather than a MM which means they can't just exclude but have to put support in place and go through all the proper channels which gives him a much much better chance. Tough for him though as this would be his fourth school. Maybe it's time to admit mainstream is not for him but what then? Without an EHCP it would be either a PRU or home schooling.

IPSEA and SOSSEN are good places to start for information and support on appealing the refusal to assess. Don’t bother with mediation just get the certificate and submit to SENDIST. LAs use mediation as a delaying tactic, if they are going to concede they will do so regardless of whether you actively partake in mediation or not.

DS won’t be being held to a higher standard because of the MM, especially as you say many staff aren’t aware of his background - which is frankly ridiculous. Schools have different rules, but most of what you list (phone, uniform, lift, disobedience) wouldn’t be accepted in the majority of schools. As for the amount of work, if others have managed 33 to 100% more work and DS is academically able it may well be a valid compliant.

it's a MM and they're not really obliged to do much.

The school is still required to make their best endeavours to meet a pupil’s SEN.

If MS isn’t suitable and neither is a PRU the LA must provide alternative education.

Thatsnomycar, where can I find guidance on how to write a really good appeal? I am mid way through and would like to make is as strong as possible.

Regarding the managed move, his new school is definitely nowhere near as flexible as his old one on the issues I mentioned above. At his old school, those issues would get you demerits/detentions but would not lead to permanent exclusion whereas in this case they most definitely will result in DS being sent back to the original school unless he changes. They also don't seem to be offering any SEN support at all. At his old school his ADHD was managed in the classroom with positive encouragement, sitting near the teacher, the teacher generally giving him more chances and flexibility, which seemed to work to some extent. He is not getting that at the new school apart from perhaps one teacher and there isn't really anything I can do about it. It's going to be a stressful few weeks until the next review point. I am not sure he is going to make it. I am sure he won't do anything really silly like bring drugs in or swear at a teacher or anything else but the other behaviours are harder to change.

IPSEA and SOSSEN have lots of information, guides, webinars etc.

The MM school still have to make their best endeavours to meet DS’s SEN. You need to push for them to provide SEN support otherwise DS is being set up to fail.

Thatsnotmycar, is that definitely right on a MM? My ex/DS's dad sent a long email to the school asking them to support him with ADHD and explaining that many of his behaviours are driven by SEN. The result was that they told DS not to come in the next day and told our original school that they were not able to provide significant SEN support. I basically feel like we can't ask for anything. Since it's a MM I'm not sure the normal rules apply.

As I posted, it still applies. However, having read your posts and the MM school saying “significant SEN support” I suspect you want SEN support that is beyond what is usually able to be provided at a SEN support level and more at a level that would require an EHCP.

I could be wrong but I don't think he needs significant SEN support, he just needs more flexibility than other kids, e.g. movement breaks, more warnings, more chances basically. We certainly weren't asking for more than that.

In any event, things have moved on. I got a phone call from his original school yesterday pm to tell us that the other school was ending the managed move. They said that DS had made a big effort last week (he received no demerits at all) but this week has not been good. He did 3 things which led to the decision: 1) Was sent out of the classroom for talking and then didn't wait outside but went the loo; 2) He pinned a friend against the wall when play-fighting; and, 3) he made another boy cry by asking him if he liked a girl. So, that is it and DS will be back to his original school and be permanently excluded.

Needless to say, DS is upset and felt like he wasn't given a chance and I am devastated for him. Not sure what to do next. Our options are: 1) Remove him from school before they permanently exclude him and apply for a place at another mainstream school (we actually have an admissions interview on Tuesday at another school as I applied a month ago as a precaution. It's a big,, rough inner London comprehensive so I'd be really worried about exposure to gangs/drugs etc given recent history; 2) Let them permanently exclude him and put him in a PRU; 3) remove him and home educate; 4) try to find a special needs school that will take him (have looked before and can't find anywhere that takes kids with ADHD (lots for autism and learning difficulties etc). Can anyone offer any constructive advice?

A child whose behaviour means they have had a number of FTE, a previous PEX, avoided another one by a MM that has now failed does need significant SEN support. You aren’t helping DS by minimising his difficulties.

A state school can’t have an admissions interview.


As already posted deregistering is not a good idea. EHE relieves the LA of their duties, getting support is harder and there is no guarantee the other school will admit.

The majority of SS need an EHCP. And those that don’t cost a lot of money. There are many, many SS who admit DC with ADHD. You can search for schools here.


Have you submitted an appeal to SENDIST for the EHCNA refusal?

I'm not trying to minimise his difficulties but all the psychologist/psychiatrist reports we've had done have set out recommendations all of which are classroom based. Who is supposed to make the determination that they need significant SEN support? No school has ever said that, just that he's badly behaved.

It's an admissions meeting but often serves as an interview. I use the word interview as state schools do use it as an interview and try to decline places based on what they find out during that process. I speak from experience.

Are there SS that do the full curriculum and allow kids to sit for 8 or 8 GCSEs?

Yes, appeal submitted, will be heard in March.

The MM school said it according to your post. Low level SEN support clearly isn’t working otherwise DS wouldn’t have had so many FTE, a PEx and a failed MM. Schools, LAs and ultimately SENDIST decide what SEN Support is required.

State schools cannot lawfully have an interview that is used to deny a place as part of the admissions procedure. That is against the admissions code.

Yes, there are SS where a full range of GCSEs can be achieved. They aren’t as common but do exist.

Thanks Thatsnotmycar. When you say SS, do you mean state or independent SS schools? There is one near us that looks very good (Holmewood?) but I think you need a diagnosis of autism.

SS means all types of special school. Most of those that cater for academically able DC are independent (wholly or s.41) or non-maintained.

Holmewood do admit DC without ASD e.g. some with other speech and language disorders or social communication disorders. However, they don’t take those with a primary diagnosis of ADHD and it is unlikely they will take DS will his level of challenging behaviour.

Honestly op. In your situation I think I would pick the PRU. Some of these can be excellent and less formal which may suit your son. Try not to worry so much about the academic standard.
I think it's clear that Main Stream of any type isn't for him and I think your expectation of 'extra chances' etc is probably unrealistic in a mainstream environment

Would you really? Have you seen the academic outcomes for kids in PRUs? DS was getting good results, predicted 7 and 8s. The results in PRUs are pretty appalling, far far worse that the worse state school. Our local PRU is also a known recruitment ground for gangs and I fear DS is especially vulnerable to those sorts of influences. Would you honestly pick a PRU over trying to get him back into a mainstream school?

I would too.

Out of your choices a PEX and attending the PRU/other AP is the option that will mean DS receives the most support. Deregistering and EHE means the LA are relieved of their duties. MS clearly isn’t suitable and doesn’t meet DS’s needs. A SS isn’t an option without an EHCP.

A PRU will mean DS receives support that he clearly desperately needs, an EHCP can be finalised and he won’t end up NEET. NEETs have even worse outcomes (academic and in relation to gangs) and that is a big risk if DS carries on as he is.

The reasons academic outcomes from those attending PRUs are lower are multifaceted. Of course the results aren’t going to be comparable to a MS because, well, it isn’t a MS. To expect that they would be is naive at best. If DS is capable of achieving high grades there is no reason he cannot achieve highly in a PRU or attending a PRU short term whilst specialist provision is arranged via an EHCP.

I would Op. honestly I think you're flogging a dead horse trying to keep him in mainstream, they simply won't tolerate his behaviour and he seems unable to change it despite wanting to.
I'd park the academic side of things for the moment and focus on trying to get him any GCSEs . For himself starting at another new school where he is probably destined to fail must be so stressful for him

I feel for you both.

Thanks Crazy. Yep, it's pretty horrendous. I don't think I am in denial by thinking he CAN cope in MS and wanting that for him over a PRU. He was doing ok in his original school until he bought in the edibles. The managed move was also going ok and seems to have been ended over things linked to his ADHD rather than serious incidents. They certainly aren't things that would have got him excluded in usual circumstances.

This is the third MS placement that has broken down, it is clear DS can’t cope in MS.

Criminal damage, disobedience, pinning a child against a wall when play fighting, disrupting lessons, not doing enough work, and not wearing uniform correctly would get pupils excluded in many schools.

Your OP and previous threads give a different picture to “doing OK”. “this is the latest in a long line of things he has done although nothing related to drugs although he has had several 2 day exclusions for vaping, another for truancy and others for not following instructions” isn’t “doing OK”. Your previous thread shows he was at risk of permanent exclusion long before he took edibles in to school.

I am sorry OP. You clearly want the best for your ds. However, you seem to be minimising your son's behaviour. Your son has been at risk of PE for a while. The extra chances and leeway they gave him just strung it out. It didn't improve his behaviour. It probably just meant that the school put up with more than many others would. I am betting that your son's behaviour caused issues for other kids' learning. In the new school, you were initially pleased that they had higher expectations until your ds started breaking the rules and attracting sanctions.

You seem to suggest that he 'was asked to leave' a private school before all this. Maybe it's time to accept that he is not ready to manage a mainstream school. You need to look at alternative provision or some kind of specialist schooling.

Thank you both for your comments. As for me not accepting that DS cannot cope in MS, I'm not sure what you expect me to do. There are literally no options open to us. I don't see a PRU as an option - the ones near us have a bad reputation and DS would only do a few GCSEs. I am not going to throw away his entire future by giving up and sending him to a PRU when he has proved in the past that he is bright and he can do well if given a chance. Yes he has behavioural issues, I'm not denying that, but I am not going to put him in a place that means no future. What does he gain by going to a PRU?

In terms of other specialist provision, again, I've done a huge amount of research and the vast majority of specialist schools I can find are for autism or other learning difficulties but not ADHD. They are all private and cost upwards of 40k a year which I can't afford even if they would take him. I found one boarding school which MAY take him but the academics are poor and my instinct is not to send him away even if that would make my life a lot easier.

So, there is nothing to do other than keep trying. He has a place at a big state secondary school fairly near us, starting next week, so he'll get yet another chance. It means starting different options so will be an uphill struggle but they seem to have a good SEN team and DS is convinced he can last if it's a proper place and not a managed move. He only has a last a year and a bit to get his GCSEs. If it all goes wrong then home educating him or trying a college or some sort will be the only option but I'd prefer to get as far along as possible with his GCSEs.

The other possible hope is the EHCPNA appeal which is next month - if that goes our way then it could be a game changer although at this late stage I'm honestly not sure what we'd do or where we'd go. I need to somehow put a really good case forward. Am wondering what other evidence I can provide to support his case.

There are literally no options open to us.

There is. If no school is suitable s.19 provision doesn’t have to be provided at any establishment it could be home tuition or online schooling or LAs often have a centre they use for s.19 tuition or... There is also an EOTAS package via an EHCP.

As posts have explained to you in the past, attending a PRU or other AP would enable DS to get the support he clearly desperately needs.

As already explained, there are SS that take academically able pupils with ADHD. They can be funded by the LA via an EHCP.


Have you got independent assessment reports for the Tribunal?

I spoke to someone who works in the PRU he would go to and he said they are basically focused on managing behaviour and that if they get through the day without someone putting their fist through the window then it's a good day. There have also been several articles describing how this PRU is a recruitment ground for gangs. Even the exclusions officer in our LA says don't send him there! I don't understand why you think the PRU would help him? What help exactly? The most likely outcome is that he'll get no GCSEs,

Can you name any of the SS for academically able kids that would take DS? I've paid an education consultant to advise me and she can't come up with any but maybe you know some that we don't?

I have psychologist/education consultant reports prepared on DS outlining his needs. Is that what you mean by independent?

Did you even read my post?

My first paragraph specifically said the provision “doesn’t have to be provided at any establishment”. That is the PRU or any other institution.

The second paragraph said “PRU or other AP”, so again in conjunction with the first paragraph if the PRU isn’t suitable it doesn’t have to be provision at the PRU.

If that PRU isn’t suitable for DS’s needs the LA would have to provide other provision. I don’t know what you are struggling to understand about that.

The correct provision outside of MS can mean DS receives the therapeutic input he so desperately needs - OT, SALT, MH therapies, specialist teaching/intervention…

Without knowing DS’s needs exactly it’s impossible to give a definitive answer to which schools. But Wilds Lodge take SEMH pupils and offer a wide range of GCSEs and some pupils there gain many GCSEs including at grades 7-9. Although their pupils mostly have ASD, Alderwasley Hall and Breckenbrough do take pupils without ASD and both offer a range of GCSEs and A levels. Post 16 Boveridge offer GCSEs, A levels and other level 2&3 qualifications. They are just the ones off the top of my head, there will be others. And, as I said if there is no suitable school there is EOTAS.

I mean independent EP, OT, SALT etc. reports. I don’t know what education consultant you have used, but unless they are qualified SENDIST will probably pay little attention to them as any advice about SEN will be outside their remit.

Clearly I read your post. I think we're operating in different worlds. There is noone offering ANYTHING at the moment and no guidance on what to do or how to access the alternative provision you are talking about. It's all very well listing all the things he could have but there is no advice on how to access them. When you do send emails to the LA it takes weeks to get a response on anything. I'm honestly not sure what else you expect me to do.

Not sure what you mean by a qualified SENDIST either or by any of the other acronyms.

Also, if he is permanently excluded, the LA will send him to the PRU. You don't the right to request alternative provision.