Can anybody tell me what the P scales are?

[Bluesunbeam]

Ds(6) is on the p scales rather than the NC. I know this means he is working below level 1 on the NC. He is in year 1.

He is scoring 3 and 4 in all areas.

I can find info on p scales but not the actual scales and hoped someone could point me in the right direction?

Would have been nice to have been told earlier in the year that this was happening!

TIA

Is this what you are looking for? You need to download the document.
nationalstrategies.standards.dcsf.gov.uk/node/95568

Thanks, just what I was looking for

They are a good thing, IMO - previously, we would have kids starting school at "working towards level 1" and finishing school in the same place!

Is he in Mainstream or SN school? If Mainstream, is the teacher trained and experienced in P levels?

P1-3 are generic across subject areas, from P4 they are subject specific. THere is a big old jump from P3 to P4 IME, and I haven't worked with many kids who are a 3/4 mix.

Ds is in mainstream but I am guessing that there is no p scale training. They have applied for a SA a few weeks ago and it hasn't been done at the school before.

We are floundering in the dark really but hopefully are beginning to make some sense of it all.

Teachers are lovely, very small school, but have trouble "getting" Ds. Stress him a little, well alot, by trying to keep him with his peers. Ds has some issues with food, noise and smell but they say they have no problems he is very quite and shy, I say hello he is withdrawing! Then face the fall out at home.

Do you think they are scoring him wrong if he has a 3/4 mix?

Thanks for the replies

I'm not saying they are doing it wrong (solidarity! They are tricky, took me a few years to get the hang of it.) But it is unusual to have that mix. What is his DX? Is he verbal at all?

Depends whether BigWeeHag is making her comment with reference to children on the spectrum. Like true G&T children (rather than the top 10%) they can often blow statistics and bell curves out of the water.
If the school is nice but uneducated, take them gently but firmly by the nose and lead them towards appropriate accommodations and support for your son, step by step.

I love your name BigWeeHag, I live on the Chalk myself.

Thanks, Goblin .

That's the thing, a child with a spiky profile might have 1-3 in most areas but could e.g. spike a P5/6/7 in Number etc. Like I said, very unusual and has often meant we were scoring them wrongly in other areas - you can't assess our kids in the same way as NT kids!

I have seen children working at P5 with spikes up to NC levels.

But levels P1-3 are generic across all levels and generally describe children who have Profound and Multiple Learning Difficulties and Complex Needs. My school took the lowest 0.8% and even then less than a third of ours were working at or below P3

Dx is Gdd, speech and language delay and we have eating, sensory and behavioural issues.

Camhs have recently mentioned autism but I'm not sure anybody really knows.

Ds is very verbal, never ever stops talking, but doesn't understand what he is saying or what is said to him, understanding is around 36 months, I think. Ds just quotes books and DVD's at us!

He does know his letters and can sound out and blend CVC words, when he is not distracted by his own agenda.

Numbers 1-10 are very shakey and we are working on them as we can.

From what you have said, that does not sound like P3 at all.

The fact that he knows his letters shows that he understands abstract concepts - that a mark on a page can carry meaning, and he can identify that meaning far enough to recognise the letter and use it in a word. That is a big concept to have, and not one that people working at P1-3 have.

Autism is tricky, because you do have the autism getting in the way of the ability getting out - it's not as simple as delayed or not having the ability. That's what I thought of when you refer to his own agenda.

The first two years we assessed using P levels, we used an assessment tool called the PACE which helped us to get into the mind set.

The company also make schemes of work that tie in with National Curriculum but provide ideas for children working at P levels

here maybe worth asking the school to invest? At the very least, the teachers need significant training. I have always used continuous assessment - a target and report for every single lesson (TA can fill in the report, target setting informed by progress and taken from IEP) because with a child with additional needs, it is inappropriate to take a snapshot view of what they can do.

I hope I am helping, please do tell me to butt out if not x

Here's some more thoughts, what is the working environment like? Are the walls very busy with displays? Generally sensory and behaviour issues go hand in hand - are they watching to see what is happening before and during behaviour episodes?

You are helping so much.

We have had one IEP in almost two years and that was because I asked to see his IEP.

They don't seem to be recording/reporting lessons but they may just not be telling us.

Classroom is VERY busy almost no room to move and absolutely no wall space left. Also seems to be quite noisy as Y1 and reception are in same room.

Not sure if they are experienced on watching before and during behaviour episodes.

I think they are a little lost and confused but they do seem to be trying to do their best and they listen to suggestions but don't often stick to them.

Ds has almost full time 1:1, not sure how they manage.

All his assessments from EP are on the 1st centile and she said she couldn't score any lower! Filled us with so much worry.

Dh just returned from work so have to spend some time with him but I'll try to check back later or will be tomorrow.

Thanks so much this is all so helpful and reassuring in a sad sort of way.

I'm still reading, but BugWeeHag seems to know so much more.

You might have to get a bit firm with them, I think. IEPs are not just a paper exercise, at least, they aren't if done properly. Targets should be reviewed properly at least half termly, and it would be good practice to share them with the parents so you can reinforce them. And they have to be SMART targets, too, none of your woolly "DS will sit nicely on the carpet," (Why will he? Who is that for?).

Even without a DX of ASD, it might be worth trying out some of the techniques that work for some - e.g, a work station area that is stimulation free, short tasks with a clearly defined end point, (sorry, sorry but) visual timetable, find out what motivates him and use it to reward.

Has he had OT input? He may benefit from some sensory equipment - a movnsit cushion, weighted lap blanket etc.

A home/ school book may be useful, if they use it.

From the sounds of it, he needs some 1-1 input ASAP.

How long ago was the EP? Maybe they need to be reviewing, and making sure the placement in school is working.

xxx

Not sure how to go about getting firm regarding the IEP. We've never had a review and our contribution was to count the stairs up to bed. we have to carry Ds screaming to bed, although he is now on melatonin. 4 nights of straight to sleep!

Strange target of recognising and naming his feelings. When he put his peg on the sad face the teacher immediately said do you want to change that you look happy to me! Arrgh.

Another one is to read all 45 high frequency words. A tall order?

lol at visual timetables we have them everywhere and they work for us! School have one but it's normally hidden away.

Been trying to get a home school book for 2 years, on SALT recommendation, but it's not happening.

Had another assessment with EP last week so awaiting report.

On the plus side the school are giving Ds 1:1 or 1:2 as he would not do anything without that level of input, because he can't and wanders off inside himself. They use the small step approach but Ds doesn't seem to retain info easily, when they move on he forgets.

Thanks for all the help it's really appreciated.

Those targets do not sound smart tbh! If they want him to read all 45 HFW, maybe it would be better to work on getting him able to sit down and be comfortable in his environment? No child can learn if they are constantly stressed.

A SMART target might say: DS will read new HFW at a rate of 1-2 per week. These will be recorded in a home-school practice book. The words will be accompanied by symbols initially. DS will change words weekly and return to challenging ones x weeks later.

Recognising and naming feelings - who does that help? Happy and sad faces don't tell us much as humans we have a wider range of emotion than that! Maybe something like: DS will start to let us know when he is in pain or upset. He will start to do this using a picture board using a peg or pointing. His use of the board will be recorded in a home-school book and in place consistently at home and school.

DS will use visual timetables to help him manage his feelings of anxiety about the events of the day. This will be prominently placed and accessible in the school and home environment. To help DS feel ownership of his daily routine, he will be responsible for removing pictures and placing them in a "finished" box. He will do this with 1-1 support initially.

Yeah, my IEPs are always pages long, what of it. :p

I feel that IEPs should be for the child, to recognise and remove barriers for them in accessing education. NOT for the benefit of staff, whole school targets etc. THe ones I have outlined above explain why stratgies need to be in place.

I guess to get firm, you might need to write to the school, officially, copy in the SEN govenor. State what you expect from an IEP/ school and what you are getting. GIve them smart targets - specific requests, a definite time frame within which you expect a response.

I've only done all this from the teachers' side of the fence, you might want to get Star or Claw or Debs to help with the parent perspective. x

Now I get what SMART targets are.

You sure you don't know my Ds?

At home he likes posting his time table pictures into a post box we made and we use an emotion fan, I'm ok type face and an upset face but I think we'll add pain in somewhere as he doesn't tell us that one either. We also try to get him to say how he feels.

I'll write to the school and use some of your suggestions as examples, I'm sure they duck when they see me or Dh so we'll take our time and try to include everything so that next year will be a little smoother.

This might be of help.

nationalstrategies.standards.dcsf.gov.uk/node/97799

We use P scales and have a very detailed breakdown of each target. There are tick boxes for every tiny achievement within, say , level 4. I've found them quite useful and have a whole file of them copied via school - think they might be called Q squared or something?

Is it B-squared? We trialled that for a bit in Maths, I preferred it in some aspects to Equals.

dd1's IEP's are pages long - honestly, about 30 pages in all, probably.

she too is on P scales, and the school use B Squared (I think!) for a breakdown of the scales and their relation to the NAtional Curriculum.

Each and every point on each section of the P scales is accounted for, with current level of attaiment and a progress target.

Silverfrog 30 pages!

Ds IEP is one page long and most of the page is taken up with names, class, etc.

I am very interested in seeing a copy, if you're sure.

It seems that so much more progress will be seen with the detail in your Dd IEP. I guess it gives you some confidence in the school.

I don;t mind at all - just don't splash it across the newspapers . NOt exactly a top secret document, really.

email me on silverfrog 13 @ gmail dot com, and I'll set to work. it may take me a few days, as we ahve a bizarre computer set up at the moment, but that should be being srted this week, so should be able to do it by Thursday, say?

The school is an ABA school, so they are well-used ot collecting data, and setting out progress targets and levels of attainment.

I have a meeting of at least an hour, termly, to go through that term's IEP with dd1's key worker. and yes, it gives me great confidence that they actually know a) what level dd1 is working at, and b) what she needs to work on to progress.

Thanks, I emailed you, no rush

got it - will reply tomorrow, probably. have computer man here fixing the issues as I type, so from this afternoon it should once more be a case of scan and go - how exciting! have been without broadband for over 2 monthsnow - won't know what ot do with myself