echolalia advice please

[claw3]

Ds 6, is very verbal. He often has quite muddled ideas and rambles a bit when he speaks, but at other times he can be very logical.

Anyhow i have noticed that if myself or others are telling a story of something that happened to us, immediately after ds will retell more or less the same story, not word for word but the same story as if it were him involved with maybe a few different bits in it. Is this echolalia?

I thought echolalia was repeating back what someone else has said, so if someone said "Would you like a drink?" the child would say "Would you like a drink?" instead of "Yes, please." What you are describing is slightly different in that he retells the story using some of his own words.
Maybe someone else can add to this.

Yes, I think so claw. Does he understand what he is saying? Some of it? All of it?

ASD often means that expressive language is far advanced of receptive (try getting your head around that) and so they appear to understand more than they do. This is where they become so frustrating for us all, because we judge them on how we learned, how 'nt' children learn, and if they can say something, they must understand if we give them that very same instruction, using the same words, and the fact that they are ignoring us means they are being defiant right? - wrong. It has gone right over their head and they don't understand why you are now punishing them.

Imahappy, thats what i wasnt sure about, i have seen echolalia, like parrot fashion repeating of words or short sentences. This is different, but the same kind of thing iyswim. I wondered if there were different levels or something.

Star, its weird. Im not sure if he is understanding or not to be honest. In the car today with ds1 and ds, ds1 starts telling me where he trains for football, some of the England ladies team train too and he had met some of them.

Ds kept trying to interrupt, saying where he trains for football, he meet some ladies and then adds to it with very muddled, random stuff and made up words. Its like he is just trying to join in with the conversation, but doesnt know how or what to say. If i ask him a logical question about what he is saying, he just continues with his muddled story or will answer but with more of the same.

expressive language is far advanced of receptive - they can express, more than they understand?

The not understanding and being defiant and punished is what school do.

We are all used to ds's long rambling speeches now and tend to switch off after the first few minutes until he has finished! Not quite sure what i should be doing to be honest, ive tried changing the subject to something more logical, but he is determined to finish what he is saying.

ok, had this conversation with DD2s SALT on wednesday.

She said true echolalia is when words or whole sections of speech are repeated, normally word for word and sometimes in same tone of voice. She said about the ages of 2-3years this is within normal language development BUT if its very often and especially if repeated completely out of context eg: DD2 will suddenly start saying whole sections of Peppa pig in back of the car, or saying whole sentences she heard earlier in the day. Does that make sense??

Lisa, thanks, its definitely not true echolalia as ds doesnt repeat back questions. I could ask him 'do you want a drink' and he will reply yes/no etc.

Ds only does it when he tries to join in with a conversation. In fact probably every time he tries to join in. Just struck me as being similar to echolalia ie copying what is being said and i wondered whether there were different forms of degrees of echolalia.

Perhaps its simply due to limited conversation skills.

It could be that he doesnt understand how to join in a conversation so uses this as his tool I dont know about degrees of echolalia and it was only one SALT!
Sometimes its very funny with DD2, but other times a real PITA. She did it to the SALT on wednesday, SALT asked "what colour is this" DD2 "what colour" "colour" "colour" to the point of shouting at SALT as she truely does not understand colour, and says everything is Yellow!

Claw It is echolalia. It is simply repeating back words or phrases that have been remembered but not understood. That is what echolalia is. It is often used as a smokescreen, when it is understood that the idea that there are times when they are supposed to be saying something, but lack the skills to know what, so they might chose something that someone else has said that appeared to be acceptable, because a) the context isn't really understood b) there are difficulties extending from their imagination and flexibility that mean it is hard to come up with own ideas.

It is hard work, but I feel that it is best to try to intervene and help them to practise the skills at more socially appropriate conversations, so they can slowly learn and 'get' the unspoken and untaught rules.

I suppose he doesnt want to 'join' in as such, he just wants to talk at you! Still your right, his attempt i think at a conversation, just doesnt realise its a two way thing.

Star, other people find it quite annoying, even my mum. She will try to have a conversation with him and he cant stay on topic and goes off on a long rambling speech about his imaginary friends and places and words. So i can imagine, he must drive other kids nuts!

Once he starts, it is really hard to engage him and get him back to 'logical'. Any attempts at change of conversation are ignored and if you continue, he will just stop and walk away. It makes me feel quite sad, when he walks away, as if his attempt has failed, so i try to tread carefully.

We do practise at other times, with games where we take turns to ask each other questions or I spy games, again its hard for him to keep his questions logical.

there are differnt types of echolalia aren't there? DS1 does something similar, I put it down to an Auditory Processing Delay causing the echolalia behaviour if that makes sense?

I know claw, because we read it as the ultimate in rude behaviour. On top of that it is very hard for us to control. Punishments can't work because the poor child doesn't know or understand that they have done anything wrong and doesn't understand what they 'should' have done right, so actually punishments are cruel.

Life is bewildering enough without you doing your best only to have someone shout at you or take something from you, or show increasing impatience and less responsive whe you really are trying your best.

Conversation skills are probably what you need to find out how to teach. I think MrsBean knows a thing or two, and perhaps Lingle. Moondog too, but she's awol!

Smellybill, ds definitely has auditory processing difficulties, his speech delay is 'hearing' the differences between certain sounds, blends and names ie t and c, g and d etc. He also pronounces some words strangely, i guess he pronounces them as he hears them, for example happened is harpened.

Thats interesting, how do you think Auditory Processing causes the echolalia?

Star he has 1:1 TA SALT for 40 minutes to work on his speech pronunciation, i know great, people will understand him better when he talks at them in future! The less said about that the better

Finding it hard to stay on top of all the DIY therapy recommended for home, but still something that has to be done.

Yes i havent seen Moondog about for ages, she has been very helpful in the past.

Bear in mind I have 5 GCSE's A-C and none cover Auditory PRocessing or SALT, my theory could be well off. My interpretation for my DS1 is that because of the auditory processing and difficulties with receptive language, he has to memorise what is being said and that happens on a time-lag (for want of a better word) . Then he repeats it out loud as doesn't have the skills to think it all in his head yet, but changes in a way that makes sense to him and that can be filling in his own blanks for any bits he has forgotten/not made sense of.

Smelly, i find the experiences of the people on here, often make more sense than the specialists with degrees coming out of their eyeballs!

What you have just said, is basically describing exactly what ds also did when younger, he would say the odd word then fill in the blanks with made up words to make a sentence! Makes perfect sense.

That would also explain why ds feels the need to constantly interrupt during someones story or convo, to retell his story quickly.

All very interesting, i think the specialist could learn a thing or two from the theories on here.

Smelly, forgot to ask, how do you deal with it?

As i said i do try to steer the conversation to something more logical or something that did actually happen, but not very successfully.

Oh ds is awake, night shift is about to start.

Thanks everyone for helping to make it clearer

Claw, dd1 used to do very similar, and still does at times of.stress.

Have you managed to flick through the statement I sent you (dont blame you if you haven't - its mammoth!)

We talk a bit in there about dd1's conversational routines. We always had the feeling that they happened because dd1 didn't know how to join in a conversation, but desperately wanted to, and so would say what she could say, or what she knewhad got her a response before.

At times this would be quoting from books. Eg, if dh and I were talking about something, and said "oh dear!" dd1 would immediately launch into reciting (and expecting us to join in as we did when reading the book with her) Maisy's Pool. This could happen over any word or phrase that featured in that book. Or if we talked about lunch, she would start quoting the Gruffalo, or go into her food conversation routine - "I'd like sooooooome....." said with a huge cheek grin as she knew it wasn't lunch time, but we were talking about food, so why shouldn't she?

Obviously it is very different with your ds, as he has so much more language to use, but the situation does sound similar.

It seems as though has "got" the fact that people talk each other, and that they impart information. But he seems at a loss as to what he is supposed to say, so says something that has wprked for someone else.

Dd1 used to be very flexible with her echolalia too, and use it to suit her purpose. So she would use a learnt phrase that contained most of the right bits of information, trying to think of an example now.... eg "i haven't got any chocolate" actually meant "I've just seen chocolate on the shelf on a shop and I want some but I don't know how to ask for it" not a very good example, but hopefully you see what I mean.

As for stopping it vs going with the flow. Hmmm, a tricky one. We joined in with dd1 when she was little (2-3 ish) as it was the only conversation we could have with her and it was nice to head her talk it did drive.me nuts though, especially when she got stuck on a loop for hours and hours.

I tried to look at it as at least she was learning the joy of interaction, and learning turn taking etc. We slowly tried to change things, so that she didn't get set on exactly the same sequence each time, and to show her that conversations could be different, but again, your ds is starting at a very different point.

We also indulged it because we wanted to reward her efforts - she was, after all, trying her hardest to join in with us, in the only way she knew how (not to say we didn't ignore at times, or get frustrated and cross)

That's really interesting Silverfrog, we're trying to do similar.

I think it is just one of those flexibility things that you go along with as parents because it is peace keeping. DS has just started to alwas set the time-timer at 10 minutes before we leave the house. Pain when you are ready and in a rush because you are trying to get out of the door and you then have to wait another 10 minutes.

There are two ways of approaching this.

1)Always remember to set it 10 mins before you leave, acknowledging that on occassion you are just going to be late if you forget because ds 'needs' this and it keeps him calm.

2. Realise it has become a rigidity/obsession/routine and try to nip it in the bud the first time you notice, but forcing ds to leave the house without setting his timer, but on reward of a lollipop or something highly motivating (which you then work on in case THAT becomes the 'routine').

It is harder to apply this to conversation, but I think I would try, in little steps. It is no good leting him go on until it drives you mad and then getting cross and impatient. HOW you do it though is something I haven't figured out yet, and I'm not quite at that stage anyway, but I tend to see things as 'our world' and 'autism world', and would probably try to slowly increase the time spent in conversation in 'our world' starting perhaps with just 10 seconds or so by prompting correct answers etc.

Keep asking though claw I think there are some less frequent posters that do know about these things and have links they can share.

This is a really helpful and interesting thread. my ds (asd) will use words or phrases in the appropiate manner ie will answer question in the right way but sometimes says it in the manner from ie Mr Tumble or the Incredibles IYSWIM. So is that echolalia? Also sometimes copies what other children are saying (mimicking) but this seems to be happening less often.

Oh definitely, star. The compromise between doing something to keep the peace, and maybe even encourage a good routine (eg your 10 min timer) and NOT letting it become an obsession is a very tricky one. Who knows where to draw the line?

We still have issues with dd1 playing about with language, and making "jokes". Eg she used to have a set conversation around eating blueberries, which was appropriate except.for the routine side of it:
Dd1: I'd like some berries please
Me: ok, I'll get some
Dd1: mummy get some berries. Mummy wash berries.

She them tried to extend her use of "wash" , and when she asked for banana, said I needed to wash the banana. I laughed (nicely!) and said something like "not WASH banana, silly, mummy needs to cut banana"
Cue mo the of dd1 playing around with verbs - "mummy needs to wash the car" (instead.of drive), "mummy needs to cut teeth" instead of clean, etc. All done purely for the joy of interaction - she was always laughing as she said the wrong one, and wanted the OTT "no, silly!" game response. If we said the wrong one, she would equally reply in kind and supply the right one (how we knew she knew she was joking, iyswim)

Fun for a few times, but then it became a huge routine each time she needed.to use one of he verbs... which rapidly became unfunny...

I find dealing with it very tricky - the Greenspan book basically said to squash it flat back to reality but I find that a bit hard to do. I think there is such a range of things going on e.g. could be partly the auditory processing, partly receptive language, partly has just plain forgotten, partly doesn't have all the skills for conversation, partly is his age, partly he has lost interest in the main topic, it is nigh-on impossible to have a standard response to it.

If I know what has actually happened e.g. at preschool I will try and walk him back through it gently prompting him in. Sometimes he remains resolute that all the children did go to sleep upstairs and the teachers went home so I just say "oh really" and drop it.

Silver, i have tried to have a read of what you sent, but when i try to open it is telling me document was created with a new version and i need to download something or the other. So trying to download. I will have more time when ds is back to school on Monday, so will attempt again then.

Other than short sentences or yes and no answers, these are the only conversations we have too! Although he does seem to have a good vocabulary, the minute i interrupt or try to deduce information, it either becomes more muddled or he stops. So ds literally talks about what he wants to talk about all the time. I tend to listen and if it goes on for too long i try to distract. Probably not ideal, but the best i can do for now i think.

Oh, bugger.

We could always finally.meet for that coffee, and I can bring along a.print out?

Dd1 also back on Monday - its been one of the almost school holidays we've ever had, but will still be nice to get some thinking space again tomorrow!

Silver, usually a coffee and a chat would be most welcome, unfortunately im up to my eyes in it at the moment. I have DLA tribunal deadline, SA request, meeting with school and ds's dx meeting to get my head around at the moment. Also ds is refusing school on PE days, so is home for 2 days a week. On top of all this i also have building work and my house is in chaos!

I will give the download a try first if thats ok.