ok, sp we're definitely in sleep issues round 2 <bleary-eyed emoticon>... really don't know what to do

[silverfrog]

So, dd2 is having real problems going to bed all of a sudden. Hours.of whimperin/crying, and irrational demands.

Not sure I can cope with this tbh. Just spent over a year withdrawing from dd1 when her sleep went haywire, and that took its toll on me, dh, and our marriage. Just the thought of going through that again leaves le feeling defeated.

Anyway. Dds share a room. In fact they have a few (odd layout of house plus our large.furniture means they are actually in what used to be the master suite) so, hallway.leads to dressing room, then door to left from dressing room to bathroom, door to right to dds bedroom. All is as it was in last house - dd1's bed, dd2's bed, wardrobe and armchair for story time. Assorted books. Cuddlies on beds.

For the first month living here, all was fine. Both girls happy with the room.

For the last couple of weeks its been going slowly.wrong. just chatting and.stuff at first, getting later and later, but we thought it might even itself.out.

Last weekend we went away (we do often) and dd2 went ballistic at bedtime (never really happened before, always been happy to settle anywhere). She wanted all sorts. A different bed, a different blanket, a different room, curtains open, curtains closed,, them finally door open and light on, with me staying outside their room until she settled (very well worn routine from the last year).

I managed to withdraw while she was still awake, and coming to check on me - she was fine with this.

Back home, and the same has continued. She wants a different room, she wants the doors open, the lights on etc etc.

Dd1 is actually.coping very well with all this, but dd2 is getting worse. Last night, she cried/whimpere/winged for over an hour before finally going to sleep. The random request last night was that she wanted "another door open" (bedroom door fully open, dressing room light on, dressing room door fully open to hallway. There wasn't another door to open!) Once I couldn't fulfil this request, she was very upset.

So, what to do? I could separate them out, but I'm not sure what good it would do. Dd2 would still be upset as far as I can see. Dd2 would not appear to be able to articulate her fears accurately (odd, as she is quite advanced linguistically) as soon as we solve one fear, another one pops up.

She is also upset as soon as she wakes on the morning - 5.30 this morning, and cue low level wailing again. Again, nothing she can tell me about, but would appear to be genuinely upset.

I really don't know what to do. Another prolonged period of sleep settling would probably mean the end of our marriage, tbh. It's not going great as it is, and dh really felt the loss of our social life over the last 18 months. We just never got to spend any time together, as one of us was outside the dds door until.all hours. Can't face doing that again.

How old is she silverfrog?

She sounds a bit like my dd1, dd1's problem is anxiety at bed time, she's perfectly happy all day (on the go, always happy) but when it gets to bed time she winges, cry's and can't get to sleep. She often says she has a worry or a problem that needs sorting (mostly things that have happened at school during the day or she has been naughty at home and feels guilty), as soon as we have sorted out one problem she thinks of another and i end up spending hours in her room.

In the past few week we seem to have cracked it (thanks to MN). Using sticky notes we write down 2 good things that have happened during the day (we also use pictures) and stick them on her wall by her bed, when she feel anxious and worried she reads the sticky notes. A few months ago we were using Melatonin to get her to sleep but now she doesn't need it.

I know what you mean by it effecting your relationship with DH, dd2 still takes hours to settle and wakes in the night, DH and i get very little time together and when we do i am so tired .

As for the early waking, i used to put a treat under dd1's pillow or by her bed so when she wakes in the morning she would have something to look at of fiddle with to distract the wailing.

I hope you find something that works.

She's 3.3

Thanks for those ideas, gives us something we can try.

Anxiety is def the key. I know everyone will prob roll their eyes when I say it, but she is really sensitive.

I can't tell her off at all (even in a nice tone, iyswim) without her dissolving into tears. Anything properly cross and she can sob for hours as though her heart is broken.

It's just so hard. If I start spending time up there again, then dd1 will be dependent on it again, and we've spent so long weaning her off it (on the plus side she is being a real star about all this - not getting hysterical when dd2 gets upset, staying in the room even with doors open, even whendd2 comes downstairs dd1 stays put!)

But I can't leave dd2 upset. Even if her fears aren't real, they are to her, and she is properly crying.

This weekend was supposed to be the first night out dh & I have had in so long. We do go away a lot, but its just home from home, really. We had Friday and Saturday lined up, friend babysitting, and for the first time in what seems like forever (before dd1 sleep issues we hadn't been out for ages as dd2 was baby) - probably a good 2 years or so - we were going to be able to go out and not worry about the girls waking/being worried etc. That's not.happening now.

Good idea about something to distract her on the morning, will try that for tomorrow

no advice but we're having exactly the same sort of issues. dd1 (9) still has sleep problems & the other two basically never sleep. The effect on our marriage is horrendous - it was 11pm before we got them settled & managed to eat last night & the morning started at 4am - I honesty can't remember the last time we had a conversation. On Monday night I just wanted to walk out on it all - I know dh has a nap in the car at lunchtime when he's at work, I'm irrationally jealous of him

Anyway - I'll read with interest, though I'm too knackered to think of any solutions.

Oh sympathy, phlebas.

I too am rationally jealous of the fact that dh gets to nap on the train to/from work (and have actual conversations with people, and gets the odd night off for dinners/works do etc)

if we do get a chance to have a conversation, like 5.30 this morning, its hasty, snappy and usually about the children.

And same problem here with DS (8). Again it is anxiety and he will be fine until the bit where I come in to say goodnight then we get 'I shouldn't be in this world', 'I don't know where I am' and demands for anything and everything he can think of. Whole process takes a couple of hours. We dread evenings. One thing I tried which has worked slightly is a bit of the technique from the 'controlled crying' suggested by some for babies. I explained that I will come back in every couple of minutes (try to be vague otherwise he will literally time me), but that I will not speak to him, only a quick hug then out. And I do go back in over and over and try and stretch the time slightly longer between visits after a while. Have had some success but interrupted by going away. Seems to help the anxiety.
About the night out - I am rubbish if worried about this, but any chance you can try and just go anyway, sometimes they can be so different for another and I have come to the conclusion that they may as well be up with someone else (if you are confident about babysitter) as up anyway with me miserable and grumpy at missing a night out. But you have all my sympathy, nights out are so few and far between they take on so much significance don't they!