Budgets for SEN in Mainstream Primary schools?

[sahs1969]

Hi,
Have just had my letter back from school with info that we requested for our appeal to tribunal-was quite shocked to see that only £16.000 is put towards SEN a year-the school has no children on statements and 9 on SA+-it is a small school of 208 children.
I just wandered if this sounds normal or is it not much at all spent towards SEN children?
Thanks

£16 ?

I haven't got this information on my DS' school, so I can't do a direct comparison. But this information from Surrey CC says that each child on SA+ would get about £1000. SEN funding would comprise that, plus 5% of a school's core budget, plus additions for statements and if you're in a low achievement area (usually measured by % on free school meals).

Your figure sounds like it could be right if there are no statements or if it's not in a low achievement area (not really sure what a 'school's core budget' would normally be).

It annoys me more that this money is not ring-fenced. It doesn't matter how much you give schools, if they can use it to paint the head's office or cupcakes for the staff, what's the point??

Had my info back last week.

Schools SEN budget is £25,444

There is no maximum or minimum number it covers. Small school, 1 form entry, so approx 210 kids.

Statemented pupils 2, SA plus 15, school action 21.

Just looked up ours - £29k for approx 350 children with 25% with some sort of SEN although if I remember correctly only 2 have a statement and there are a handful of SA+.

£16k is reasonable imo - it would pay for an LSA to support 9 children.

Debs40, the money can't be ring fenced. It is a notional amount based on the total estimated number of children in the school multiplied by a figure derived from the school profile. It doesn't relate to any particular group of children unless they are statemented and then their personal allocations are to be spent only on them. The money has to be spent by the head to meet the SNs of the children who have them. They have to demonstrate this to Ofsted and expenditure is very closely watched, well it is in our LEA. Believe me there is no spare money for cupcakes - redundancies are being threatened in many schools. As for painting the heads office that would come out of the capital expenditure budget not the main budget.

Niecie, I was being facetious about the painting and the cupcakes. I know that sums do not attach to children but they should be used for the purpose they are provided for.

I understood from the Lamb report, that there was in fact discussion of the problem of the lack of ring-fencing. It is very easy for example for Heads to buy equipment for use by the whole school while saying they have no money to do x,y or z with a child with SEN.

Many items of expenditure for SEN children may benefit the whole school and that is fine, but if the LA or Ofsted's checking is as rigourous as their checking of teaching standards, assessments, safety or anything else, I won't hold my breath. I was not aware that Ofsted in fact, until recently, had any particular mandate in respect of SEN budgets.Schools should be accountable to parents

I would be interested to learn precisely how the budgets are monitored. My son, for example, is on SA+ but would have got NO addditional support if I hadn't challenged the clear absence of provision.

The system is left to parents to police. Schools can tell external agencies anything.

The problem and reality is that it is frequently

I will second that, theory and reality are two different things.

Schools tend to aim any help at academic progress, rather than the provision matching needs, so they look good for Ofsted!

T

Schools have to submit accounts every month same as any other business - the LEA keep a very close eye on them and expect all variances to be explained. They also send round inspectors regularly that do the same thing that Ofsted do. Pupils are monitored on an individual basis, or should be. It is very rigourous. Inspections aren't once every 3 yrs when Ofsted pop up for the morning. Academic results are secondary to the Value Added too. Our school has better than average results but it didn't stop it being on the verge of being a failing school at its last Ofsted. SEN aren't taken out of the value added calculation therefore it is in the best interest of the school to make sure they are provided for.

If your DC aren't getting any help then you should be enforcing their IEP's and asking for help. Like anything else you get good schools and bad schools, ones that are good at budgetting and those that aren't. It is tough, I know that but if the school is well run then they should make provision for SENs. If they aren't then you should speak to the head and then to the Governors.

I realise you were being facetious Debs40 but I am a school governor as well as a parent of a child on SA+ - I see both sides to this and I know that schools don't fritter away money and I know that they can barely draw breath without some inspector or other coming to investigate. They are fighting against their budgets all the time. Our school is going to be very short of money but once they have ensured that each class has a teacher the next thing they safeguard from budget cuts is the SEN provision - making sure they have enough LSAs etc. They have to keep the impact to the children to the absolute minimum.

They don't get any more money for SA+ children than any other child and are supposed provide help based on a general pot. Of course they should be accountable to parents but the other side of that is that parents have to do the chasing if things aren't as they should be. Your child's education is supposed to be a partnership of parent, governor and teachers. That is the ideal - you are meant to be able to challenge the school or the governors if things aren't as they should be.

I am actually quite annoyed at your cynicism. I had no idea before I became a governor the hoops schools have to jump through. If your child goes to a badly run school then I am sorry about that but it is up to you to do some whistle blowing if you really think SENS children are being short changed. Even become a governor yourself. However, the majority of schools are doing the best they can with limited resources.

LOL Niece, im sorry 'Child are monitored on an individual basis' on which planet?

Riven, that is as should be if you have a statement isn't it? Does she have her own LSA?

I am not up to speed on statements as DS doesn't have one but I am going to have to get up to speed as I volunteered to be the SEN governor a couple of weeks ago! No idea what that means but I think I am about to find out.

I'm aorry but your experience is different and I resent the suggestion that my cynicism is unfounded.

Schools do get money for children on SA+. I was told by Parent Partnership and the LA inclusion officer on our Early Bird Plus course that my son should be getting an additional 5 hours a week support on SA+ as this is what the LA pay for. This doesn't have to be 1:1 , it can be in a group but he was getting NOTHING. I have had to fight for him to get ANY support

So your comment "If your DC aren't getting any help then you should be enforcing their IEP's and asking for help" is deeply patronising. It is NOT my job to enforce IEPs. However, I actually DRAFTED my child's IEPs after spending two months insisting that he get one and then arguing for him to get appropriate support.

It should not be up to parents to chase for support and I resent your immediate suggestion that this is somehow my fault for not doing this.

I have spent a year of my life 'chasing for support' drafting social stories, IEPs, helping with getting him into class, with arguing for inclusion and getting the necessary experts involved because the school wont'.

Why? Well, the fact is that not all children with SEN are failing academically so who is bothered about them?

Schools spend money on SEN in two situations: a child is disrupting the learning of others e.g. behavioural problems and a child is falling far behing and this effects the school's results. You fail to reach your own potential and who cares.

And my son's school is considered 'ASD friendly' and supportive by the LA and outstanding by Ofsted.

As for LA monitoring, please. A sheet of figures does which says we are spending £x on 'y' is getting 5 hours help from this TA every week does NOT mean that child is getting that support at all.

You may have a wonderful school who never do things like this but that is not the experience of most parents here.

Schools should be getting money for pupils on SA+. The Surrey website linked upthread says that they get £1002 each in that county.

It's sad to think that parents have to do the chasing and question details of the school's budget. The schools with the highest percentage of SEN children are usually those with high proportions of children on free school meals/English as Additional Language. The parents in those circumstances often don't have the education and confidence to question the decisions made by schools - I've seen it first hand in parent workshops in my borough. It is always the most articulate and educated parents who are able to fight for provision.

Absolutely right sugarcandy. It makes me furious too. I was on the Early Bird Plus course with parents who were lost in the system and whose children were really suffering. But they wouldn't have known where to start and I don't mean that in a patronising way at all. I think for me, as a lawyer, I think nothing of asking questions of people if I don't understand. Teachers etc don't like that, and it can make things unpleasant, but at least the questions get asked. DH would never do that and would just let things drift as he is not one to question things at all and wouldn't have the confidence

Debs40 - I am sorry you feel that way and I am surprised you feel partonised. It wasn't what was intended, nor do I think that is what I wrote. I don't know your back ground why would I assume that you hadn't been chasing? I was making the point that if you aren't happy then you should be chasing. The IEP is for you and your child. It is the link between the school and you and you and your child are meant to review it termly. OK you should haven't to write it but I don't honestly get why you seem to resent having to chase. We as parents are meant to be working with the school to educate our children. We know them better than the school does - why would I not want to be chasing to make sure I know what is going on and that my DS is getting the support he needs? The school has completely different responsibilities to me. They have a responsibility to educate the whole school and I have a responsibility to bring up my son. They are not necessarily the same thing and it is my job to reach a compromise over what that actually involves. In an ideal world DS would get one-to-one for as much of the time as he needs whilst getting the most from the social situation of being at school but that isn't going to happen so we get on with it.

Your LEA is obviously different to ours. We do not get any money per child on SA+. SEN comes out of the pot based on an allocation per child in the school. I checked this. I was told from the very start that DS would not get any extra money for his SA+. He would only get extra money if he got a statement and those are few and far between. He gets extra help because that is what the school are meant to provide. If they don't then I chase them up on it as my part of the partnership that makes sure DS is educated and his SN are met. I had to do it last week actually. I don't however, assume that he isn't getting help just because they have wasted money and don't know how to manage their school which is what you are insinuating.

I refuse to believe, knowing how close the school came to special measures that they are in any way unusual or special. They are just doing their job. My DS is neither failing academically nor disruptive by the way, nor am I a particularly pushy parent but he still gets help.

Well you are at a good school then. Good for you.

I'm not getting into an argument about this but you did advise me to enforce the IEP and to chase provision as if my failure to do this was actually the problem. Lazy, fickle parent leaving it all to the poor overstretched school.

However, by saying this, you misunderstand the nature of SEN COP and a school's legal obligations under the DDA. You are new to your role but I suggest you investigate both. These legal obligations are not for parents to police or enforce, in partnership or otherwise.

Clearly, as a good parent, I do chase and I am active. Anyone spending any time on this board would know that. I have been on courses, bought books for schools, involved relevant experts, held meetings, taken time off work to help with getting DS to school and sorting out problems.

I had a month of him coming home from school at lunchtime every day because sensory problems meant he could not eat in the hall. OT and Inclusion officer suggested alternatives e.g. him eating outside the school hall. Did school do this? No. Their response - we haven't got the resources. I offered to come in. They wouldn't have that either. So, we managed alone. Try and keep freelance work going when your child is home every day at lunchtime.

So do I get annoyed about having to force teachers to do what they are legal obliged to do? Yes. Do I get angry about being lied to about provision? Yes.

Easy example. My DS has a suspected ASD. School have been told by Ed Psych, ASD team, SALT he needs a visual timetable. It took 5 months for this to put up. Why? There are other kids in the class who are worse than him. It is even on his SA+ IEP that he will get 1:1 every morning to help him with this. He NEVER gets this. I do it. I do it every morning. Do I resent helping? No. Do I resent school telling LA or anyone else that they do all these things for him within their budget? Yes.

Schools get money for SEN. Statements are hard to get because LAs say schools have the money. Schools don't want to spend this money on children who are not failing.

So, you are quite wrong. I am not insinuating anything. I am being very clear. My son's SEN are ONLY met because of the work I do and continue to do in badgering teachers to do the basics on his IEP and follow the programmes set up by outside professionals. I also have had to work hard to ensure that the provisions of the DDA

The school gets that money for him. It was not applying it. Even if came out of a 'pot', it has the money. If it does not, and things the child's needs are not being met because of budget restraints, it should apply for a statement. Schools won't do this and this is my reality.

Your reality might be very different. Good. I am pleased for you. But don't assume everyone's reality is yours. Your experience is not typical on this board.

I have never had to say this on this board before but I am going to hide this thread because I find your comments judgmental and that is something we don't generally have here.

I think myself that the essential problem is that there is just not enough money in education, and sadly that problem is going to get worse and worse now we have the lovely tories.

Our school is in relation to other schools massively funded for SEN because nearly half of all children on the roll are on the SEN register. As various people have said on this thread, the money comes as a pot with the allocation calculated on indices of deprivation in the area (free school meals for eg, our school is in the fourth quartile of most deprivation) plus numbers of pupils on SEN register. But that does not mean money washes around the school and everyone gets what he or she would ideally need the money is enough for a really generous allocation of TAs, with quite a lot of children getting extra help. But it's never, never enough and it can't be unless there was more money in the system.

And where is the money to come from? In terms of primary school budgets (which is what I know a little about as a primary school governor) I don't see money being wasted on frills, and I also see teachers being made redundant, cuts in equipment, resources budgets and so on. It will get worse. Schools funding has in recent times been protected and increased year on year. That will stop.

My parental self thinks, what will happen to my child but I also worry, and probably more, for all the kids who haven't got articulate parents with sharp elbows. Some of the things I hear as a governor do make me feel that for all his difficulties my ds1 is very fortunate and well supported compared to the difficulties that many children at my school have and which the school is trying to do something about.

While individual parents see the education system from the perspective of their own child/ren, schools have to be concerned with all their children, and though there may be some terrible uncaring schools, many are really trying to do their best in an imperfect system. I sometimes find myself thinking of a notice a colleague used to have on his door, 'just because I am doing nothing for you at the moment, that does not mean I am doing nothing for anybody else'.

Nail on the head, parents should work in partnership with school, not do their job for them, which in my experience is often the case.

my son has a statement and now attends a private autistic school but i found when i was applying for his statement that the first school was not supportive at all. The second school (DS was excluded from one and went to another half way through the process) was very supportive but wanted us to push for full time........after a little investigating i found out that anything up to 23 hours had to be paid for from the schools SEN budget. Once a child was awarded over 23 hours then they got their own extra budget to support them. DSs first offer was 15 hours and this crept up to 22.5 but luckily because i knew about the golden 23 hours i pushed and they awarded 32.5! I have been offering help to others in my area who are going through the statementing process and once they know this information it all makes sense as to why they are struggling! The LEA do anything to keep the hours below 23 and the schools know how much of a struggle it is to get above 23 hence the reluctence to apply for statements!

one thing i also found with the first school DS was at was they were spending there SEN budget on extra reading groups and maths groups and did not want to give DS support as he was achieving highly academically but needed the support for his behaviour!

My DD goes to an "outstanding School" according to Ofsted. It's a high achieving school with a low number (if any) on free school meals - which i was told by the SENCO that this means they receive very little SEN funding.

Throughout her time at the school she has received no form of help, no IEPs, only one meeting with the SENCo. I don't even know if she's on SA or SA+ (although lea said she was). I have been desperately trying to get her help but to no avail. Hence we're moving. I would complain to the Governors about her lack of support but they "do not deal with individual pupil issues".

I have done everything that the school has asked me to in supporting DD but its a one-way. deal.

There probably are schools with good records on SEN like yours Niecie, but there are many who aren't. If you're not at a school who is supportive of SEN and your LEA has (according to IPSEA) one of the worst records in the country in relation to SEN then you really are facing a losing battle.

In my experience, the children at my DDs school who have received support (other than the few with statements) are those that have joined the school since reception a little behind. I think they see this as an easy way to boost up the value added stats. My daughter, however, has ongoing needs and a little extra support for one school year (although we'd be grateful for this) is not going to turn her around.

"I am not up to speed on statements as DS doesn't have one but I am going to have to get up to speed as I volunteered to be the SEN governor a couple of weeks ago! No idea what that means but I think I am about to find out."

Niecie, with no disrespect, at all, meant to you, that is one of the most worrying things I have heard for a while.

Parents up and down the country are battling a system where the only thing that can guarantee effective provision for their children is a well-written statement, and LEAs will fight tooth and nail to prevent them from getting one.

My LA is pushing 'inclusion partnership agreements' which boast that 'only those people currently involved with the child will be included in the process' aiming to 'simplify' it.

So, tell me what happens if a school has made no effective provision for a child, and hasn't made referrals to outside agencies appropriately? That child gets an IPA written by a SENCO and a class teacher. Who only know as much as they got on a 1 or 2 day training course.

May I suggest that you go to the the tda website and download a copy of the SEN Code of Practice? It will tell you all you need to know about the statementing process, and schools' responsibilities towards children and parents of children with SEN.

Niecie - debs has loads of experience and is a point of reference for a lot of us on here. The majority of parents with SN children do have to fight for everything and if you haven't had to then you're very lucky! I for one always have to chase everything up - why is that? Why can't the people who are meant to be helping us actually do that instead causing us all a load of grief? I don't expect a response although I note you said earlier that you were climbing off your soapbox and leaving the thread but still didn't. I too am a governor and have a child on SA+. I am however just about to request a SA because as helpful and supportive as the school are they still cannot adequately support my ds with the resources they have. I suggest you read lots of the threads on here to help give you a balanced view which you'll need in your new role as SEN governor!