Disabled people "are not allowed to breed"

[QueenEagle]

Is a phrase I heard this evening in the pub.

Is it true that disabled adults ie those with learning difficulties (such as Downs I assume) are not allowed to have a sexual relationship or have children?

Is this really true or have I been subjected to an individual's bigoted views?? And if it is true, says who?? And how on earth can anything like this be enforced??

common sense is a wonderful thing but seems to be a scarce commodity some times.

exactly matnanplus!

TBH if find a frightning lack of common sense in teaching in the NT world. I get heartly sick of well meaning people who honestly think that 14 year olds are capable of making decisions at an Adult level of comprehension. I have read far to many EBD IUPs for NT kids which say things like 'X misbehaves and doesn't know why he does this' and I am supposed to take this seriously! They know why, they do it because they want to do it! But some daft, well meaning, caring soul has taken then seriously!

I got a bollocking from my tutor when I told her that I thought it was a grave mistake to treat teenagers as if they were adults. She thought I wasn't showing them enough 'respect'

Respect but not my equal was my answer to her, which she didn't like either! Just plain daft IMHO!

matnanplus... from what you have said you are doing exactly what I meant by 'respecting them as a person'. As in, you obviously have your sisters best interests at heart, you make decisions based on an understanding of them as particular people - not some textbook 'right'. Your aim is to make their life as good as it can be - not to complicate it by imposing upon them things they cannot understand or cope with. That was what I meant by respect.

HITC, yep, to make decisions that respect them as a person and respects their rights is a fine balance and a huge responsibility.

As an adult with mild spinabifida, I was astonished to find that, whilst in early stages of my pregnancy with my daughter, I was told by a midwife who said "next time you go to the hospital, ask for an abortion - not because there is a fault with the baby but because you cannot walk and therefore you cannot be a "proper" parent"(!) I told her in now uncertain terms, to leave. On the way out she said that "at the end of the day, its the baby I feel sorry for, cos it will spend its life being totally miserable and/or in care!" I was determined, however, to go to ante-natal classes, but when I arrived, I was asked why I was there, as I was having a caesarian which is "not a proper birth!"

Four years later, I gave birth to another child, a boy, at another hospital. Prior to succeeding, I was told by my health visitor that "invalids should be sterilised at birth" (this was 1999!!)

After becoming a single parent in 2000, I have had more problems from social services who were determined to take my children from me and made up all sorts of lies. Eventually, I got depressed, so they got their way, but only for 18 months (longest 18 months of my entire life!), "luckily" they went to my parents.

Legally, everyone has a right to life and a family, if anyone has problems, contact a lawyer for advice.

TTFN

wheelygoodmummy

Echoes of eugenics

Was reading Steve Jones - Language of the Genes today and he said that is how the name Eugene came into being... means ´well born´

Eugenics was a big part of politics and science for many countries. Hence like Jones´s introduction is titled it has left ´footprints of history´ - so the bias is still evident in the people everywhere.

Here are two phases that British politicians have used which reflect the belief and bias that eugenics has wrought.

´The unnatural and increasingly rapid growth of the feeble-minded and insane calsses, couples as it is with steady restriction among all the thrifty, energetic and superior stocks constitutes a national and race danger which it is impossible to exaggerate. I feel that the sources from which the stream of madness is fed should be cut off and sealed off before another year has passed.´ - Winston Churchill, 1910

´There is no such thing as society, there are only individuals´ - Margaret Thatcher

Winston was a staunch supporter of eugenics and Margaret Thatcher unfortunately echoed the failed philosophy years later.

WTF???? I'm staggered. Have you "met" Bunglie on here? she's disabled and (long story but all on here somewhere) she had her children removed.

I find it staggering. Where do these ideas come from. There was a wheelchair user at a toddler group I went to. She didn't need help with anything, not with picking up her baby son, not with getting him or herself into her car, nothing at all. Where do all these dreadful attitudes come from?

There was an article in the Mail today about a couple who have had their 2 children taken away because the mother is learning disabled and they don't believe either parent is capable of looking after them. The children were apparently well cared for and loved but ss said the daughter "had 'suffered significant emotional harm' because of her mother's lack of responsiveness and the fact neither parent could 'demonstrate an ability consistently to provide stimulation'"

FFS - why not help the couple to care for their children rather than take them away? If stimulation is a problem then send them portage or get them on playschemes... far cheaper in the long run than the costs of foster caring. Help teach the parents to parent. If they love their kids and they are not in any danger surely surely that has to be the best thing to do?

My sister has DS and is sterilised. Absolutely the best decision for her and for any potential child. She lives with her boyfriend in a carehome. It obviously depends on the level of disability, but considerations for the child must come first. My sister needs looking after herself and a baby just ins't an option. Neither is a pregnancy. She does want a baby with her boyfriend, but as she has the mental age of someone of 12, she wants a baby like a 12 year old wants a baby.

A few years ago it was a big thing in the newspapers in the village I lived at home that SS had removed the children of a mother with mild learning difficulties. People where in uproar,but my parents lived close to this mother and knew that part of the problem was that she used to go out and leave her small children alone in the house. Shopping, to bars etc. SS can't always give the details of these cases to media and they are often misrepresented.

It's a very sensitive topic. Where do you draw the line and who decides....

HITC.....but some parents just cant be simply taught to parent a child. Both my boys are adopted. Their birth parents both have SN. SS were very supportive of them. They spent time in a family center with supervisors helping them to care for their children...but at the end of the day they just couldnt cope.

Sadly my DS's have two siblings who didnt survive because the birth mom couldnt look after herself let alone a baby. The love she has for her children is evident in the letters she sends them but love isnt enough is it? The children needed feeding, clothing, bathing and she just simply could not cope with the needs of a child.

Absolutely agree Jayzmummy but from what it said, and of course, we only know what is reported, not the real situation, it did sound like the parents were coping with their basic care. It said:

"social worker's admitted they were loved, clean, well-dressed and fed"

and it appears that their only real concern is that the children aren't stimulated enough. Which I would have thought was something that could be helped with.

But of course, I don't know the whole story and maybe they have tried to help in other ways. If the children are truly at risk then of course that must be addressed.

It must be so hard for social workers when they walk into a home to remove a child from the parents care....not a job I could do.

When we were looking into adopting a child we were sent details of a baby who's parents had run a restaurant. The little one was beautiful and developing physically BUT the baby was put in a card board box under the counter during the retaurant opening hours....the baby was loved, cared for, fed etc....but no stimulation had left the little one failing in meeting its milestones.

I know - and I am not having a go at social workers - my mum was one!

But I suppose my point is that in this case it appears that the children are not neglected - maybe just that the mother doesn't really know how to play and interact with her children (and lets face it neither do many parents who have no learning disability) Whereas the little girl stuck in the box is clearly neglect (and awfully ).

It is a difficult issue. Maybe the mother never will be able to learn that. Maybe that would mean a lot of intervention from SS or other services for a lot of years. I just think that our systems lack imagination and flexibility and I think it is sad that there aren't more creative and humane solutions to this kind of problem, where there is no evidence of abuse or neglect, than just taking the kids away.

Anyway - I will leave it there. Just thought it was an interesting article in view of this recent conversation.

I was critizized for being pregnant, I heard a mother say in the labour ward that 'people like her should not be allowed to have babies'and when I got pregnant the second time the Social workers did not offer me any help but did 'spot checks' and turned up on my doorstep at least every ten days....My children were always clean, well fed and stimulated by me, other children and people and no one except my 'step monster'complained about how they were. I had my children taken away because I was accused by Meadows, who never even saw me but spoke to my step monster, and then the Social Services. I was accused of having MSbP, and there is NO DEFENCE against this accusation. I had my children adopted when they were 2 and 3.5 and nothing stops the pain of losing your children and knowing that you did not deserve to loose them and the man who said that I had MSbP has been struck off but still I have to live with the stigma of people thinking that it was right that my children were taken and that it was because I am disabled.
If the government gives drug addicts support to keep their babies then they should give the same support to disabled people.

P.S. Bunglie is back!!

Round of applause for Bunglie. You are one brave woman it must be said.

Re-sex ed last term I went on a sesx ed course run by me and us (if anyone is interested v.good)
about sex and relationships for children with ld.
We were told that we should follow age appropriate where possible but also tailor this to their own needs .ie a boy with sld doesn't need to learn periods.someone with mld that may have a relationship should learn condoms.
We were also told that the majority doesn't get taught because of parents objecting.

Nikki, well done in teaching that people do have sex to people with learning difficulties, but if the truth were known most people have sex at some stage in their lives even if they do not realise it!
I have found that being in a wheelchair makes me the butt of many jokes when it comes to sex...why you may ask, I wish I knew the answer. It seems that people do not realise that even a paraplegic who has no control from the waist down is still capable of sex. For men there are special aids that help them get erections, for women there are other methods of helping your partner as well as yourself get the most out of a loving sexual relationship.
I am fed up of jokes like, well...she gets put on top of the wardrobe and on the command 'launch' she comes flying off and lands on my dick! Is that funny? So why should I be prevented from having a sex life? Last time I was in hospital I spoke to a male doctor,from the spinal unit, who informed me of new methods of 'digital stimulation' I must admit to being as red as a beetroot (sorry beety) but I had not expected it from a man who was a neurologist, in his late 50's and totally out of the blue. He made me feel normal and asked me no questions but he did also give me a web site if I wanted more information. Unfortunately I lost the peice of paper with the web address on, so if anyone knows of it I would be greatful.
There are so many disabled people in this world with so many varying disabilities, whether it is phisical or mental and I am afraid I do not differentiate between disabilitioes as I hate it when someone thinks that their disabilty is worse than the next persons. A disability is a disability and it is how you cope with it that makes the difference as to how disabled you are in my opinion. However I think you are disabled if you wear glasses, does that mean you cannot have sex, or do you take your glasses off and get on with it? What goes on behind anyones bedroom door should be kept private so long as it is legal and both partners are comfortable with what they are doing. I do not think that it is my buisness and it is not anyones buisness as to what and how my dh and I do unless I make it their buisness. I shall not be having anymore babies but if I were 25 years younger then I would certainly consider it and knowing what I know now I would still try and get pregnant and shout from the rooftops at the portion of society that still insists that it is correct that I do not have my children now.
Here ends Bunglies sermon!