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SN children

Here are some suggested organisations that offer expert advice on special needs.

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Original poster

Disabled people "are not allowed to breed"

93 replies

QueenEagle · 30/07/2005 22:56

Is a phrase I heard this evening in the pub.

Is it true that disabled adults ie those with learning difficulties (such as Downs I assume) are not allowed to have a sexual relationship or have children?

Is this really true or have I been subjected to an individual's bigoted views?? And if it is true, says who?? And how on earth can anything like this be enforced??

OP posts:

Original poster

QueenEagle · 31/07/2005 12:05

My ex-dh used to work for MENCAP in a home with adults with LD's. I know many of the female patients? clients? were allowed to have a sexual relationship but only if they had been put on the pill or equivalent.

So the choice is not entirely theirs, it is enforced by their carers.

OP posts:

Jimjams · 31/07/2005 12:10

I suspect they could refuse though. Pretty sure legally they can do what they want.

Jimjams · 31/07/2005 12:13

some info as it relates to scotland

bundle · 31/07/2005 12:16

a friend who adopted a little girl went to see the long-term foster carer who'd looked after her daughter the other day and she had a new baby with her - the child of 2 people with SN, who'd been placed with her because the parents weren't coping (ie they'd been left to try and given appropriate support I assume). I thought this was incredibly sad, for everyone involved but suppose the child's interests are paramount.

Jimjams · 31/07/2005 12:17

more here think this dates back to the mid 90's

Jimjams · 31/07/2005 12:21

and more

edam · 31/07/2005 12:22

My sister is training as learning difficulties nurse. She came across a very sad case, where the young woman had a baby, and social services were very keen to take it away. Really nasty social worker who tried to force the father out - accused him of being 'too involved' because he went to the hospital every day to see his partner when she had the baby, FFS. The social worker bullied this girl into going into a home for new mums although she didn't want to go and basically cut the father out. Not sure what has happened since (my sister's placement finished) but the social worker was definitely prejudiced rather than acting rationally in the best interests of her client and the baby. It's one thing to support people with learning difficulties, it's another to interpret everything as worst possible case scenario with a nasty suspicious mind. It's easy for carers and social workers to bully people with learning difficulties, sadly.

My sister also had a case where one of her clients (before she started nurse training she was a carer) wanted to watch pornographic videos. Nothing extreme, just the sort of thing many men enjoy watching. Cue big meeting with all the carers debating whether he should be 'allowed'. He was living in supported accommodation, but paying rent - this was his own home. Sister insisted that if that's what he wanted, no-one had the right to stop him, and won the argument. One very happy client!

Jimjams · 31/07/2005 12:29

interesting edam as that agrees with some comments in the links.

edam · 31/07/2005 12:37

IIRC forced sterilisation was still going on in Norway until very recently - the 1980s?

I can see the argument that some women with learning difficulties wouldn't comprehend what was happening to their body with pregnancy and childbirth, but surely everyone has to be treated as an individual, with considerable respect for their human rights and dignity?

edam · 31/07/2005 12:38

... and then there's the problem that women with learning difficulties are unfortunately vulnerable to sexual abuse. My sister's known clients who have been abused by their own family.

JOSIE3 · 31/07/2005 12:39

This is such a difficult subject. Absolutely disgusted with man in pub and Yes, I would have said something too.

As for sterilisation and contraception. I think I would go for contraceptive injection too. My reasoning would be that people with LD have underge sex too, yet many don't fully understand the concept of pregnancy and childbirth until a later age. When the lady felt ready to come off the contraception then it would be her choice

As for adult relationships and love (and co-habitation, marriage etc) they are basic human rights as far as I am concerned.

Jimjams · 31/07/2005 12:40

yes- reading through the links I think the aim is for legislation to protect against abuse whilst allowing conentual relationship. A tricky balance.

SoupDragon · 31/07/2005 12:45

If they are capable of looking after a child with minimal support and can understand exactly whtait means to have a child (rather than thinking it's like some sort of pet IYSWIM) then anyone should be "allowed" to have a child.

Sadly, it's only SN parents who would have to prove they are capable. Anyone else can just go and have a child and make a complete pigs ear of it.

happymerryberries · 31/07/2005 12:56

Is it the case that parents with learning difficulties of a particular level would get support with their child to help 'get over' specific probelms. I am thinking say, of parents who could not themselves read getting help when the child went to nursery?

I know that there are NT paople who can't read btw, and it is a shame that they don't get help in this area as well.

happymerryberries · 31/07/2005 12:59

BTW I used to work for a pharmaceitical company that made 'the pill'. We were once asked for dummy pills to give to a woman who had DS who was in a sexual relationship and wanted to go in the pill. Unknown to her she was being given the contraceptive injection and didn't need the pill.

The comapny refused to get involved in what they saw as a situation where someone who was capable of making informed decisions was being denied the opertunity. I agreed with the decision fwiw

Davros · 31/07/2005 13:04

Sorry, I haven't read all of this , just catching up on MN after a few days. All I can say is that I don't agree with disabled people not being "allowed" to have sexual relationships or have children. But obviously there are some disabled people who need to be carefully supervised when it comes to sex with someone else as they may not understand what it is and what it means.
On another note, I have a "friend" who is planning on delaying her DS's puberty by medical intervention. When asked why her reasons are that he's difficult enough without puberty. He is a very sweet and placid boy. I think it stinks although I haven't probed enough to get full details. I think its rather shocking actually.

happymerryberries · 31/07/2005 13:21

I was very sadned to read that Lord Rix's dd Shelly died on the 19th of July this year. How very sad.

edam · 31/07/2005 13:42

Davros, that is shocking - delaying puberty for his mother's convenience?!

dottee · 31/07/2005 15:08

QE - I hear what you are saying. My dd cannot communicate - if she could I would respect her views and wishes (and also I could explain the consequences of becoming pregnant).

I would dearly love her to be in a position to have a baby in the ideal world and become upset when I feel nature has denied her the opportunity to become a mother and. let's be realistic. a wife. I've just had to intervene and disrespect her wishes as she was refusing to have her teeth cleaned - I had to say 'come on and let mummy do this' for her own good. Unfortunately we are not in an ideal world and to dd, babies are things that suddenly appear. I'm sure anyone who has seen dd on meet-ups will understand that it is very unlikely she will ever be cognitively able to be a mum. She is receiving sex education at school but with SLD kids, the delivery of such lessons is difficult. Dd is yet to start her periods and hasn't a clue what is happening to her body.

I didn't really think about this conundrum until my GP brought it up and started talking about contraception. As for consent, I have that until dd is 18. What happens after 18 - well we will cross that bridge when we come to it!

Like I say, there are many degrees of LDs and some people with LDs would make very good parents. I know my dd is incapable at this stage and is unlikely to have the capability to be a 'good' parent, even with support. I believe in dd's case contraception is appropriate so she can enjoy a relationship if it comes her way. And if she did become able to fulfill a less dependant life, she would be able to make the choice.

She is also very vunerable and imo always will be. She's noticing boys and approaches them to stroke them and say 'ahhhh'. Her periods are due to start at anytime and there's not a lot I can do about it.

So to summarise - I feel that dd should be able to become part of a relationship if the opportunity came along and would be happy if she was happy. But, because she has such severe learning difficulties (and challenging/aggresive behaviour sometimes) I feel that it would not be appropriate for her to 'breed' because she would not understand the consequences, find it difficult to understand what was happening during pregnancy and not be able to care for the baby even with support. I stress I am talking about my dd and no-one else.

Davros · 31/07/2005 15:14

dottee, very well put and the same for us (but DS).
Edam, it is shocking isn't it? I don't want to be judgemental so I'd be interested if anyone can see any justification for delaying puberty.

Jimjams · 31/07/2005 15:23

agree with dottee as well- ds1's case is the same....

Fio2 · 31/07/2005 15:34

the same with us too dottee

Prufrock · 31/07/2005 16:29

So dotee in a case like yours, what does happen when your dd is 18? Who decides whether an adult with SLD is capable of making their own decisions, and if they are found to be incapable, who gets to make those decisions for them? You, or do social services get involved and try to take over?

I do think it is a disgusting remark to have made, and attitude to have. But I do think that there are some people whose disabilities mean that they are not capable of making an informed choice to have children, and whose own interests, and those of potential children, would be better served by some form of enforced contraception. The difficulty lies in ensuring that that decision really is taken with the best interests of the individual in mind.

Fio2 · 31/07/2005 17:18

just making an assumption but I would imagine a medical professional would make that decision. it is no good poretending that an adult with the mental age of 2 is responsible for their own actions

matnanplus · 31/07/2005 17:25

I have 2 DS sisters and neither are on birth control because they cannot understand the reason.

Our local authority provider, of day care/work/fully supervised accomodation has a stated duty to ensure that nothing of a sexual nature happens in their places unless the couple involved are fully able to tell you about sex/baby/contraception and are taking appropriate measures, holding hands/kissing is ok, intimate touching etc is where they are encouraged to stop.

Neither of my sisters could care for a baby or understand the body/behaviour changes due to pregnancy.

The younger one [27] has a 'boyfriend' and in common with young children they are 'together' one minute and 'not together' the next.

The older one [31] has autisic tendencies and OCD and no boy interest.

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