DS2 (4.8) has started playing around with language again

[lingle]

Ds2 has made enormous progress in understanding simple narratives. We have allowed him to watch more Thomas videos, etc, because he now acts out variations on what he has seen in his own pretend play (for instance, I have bought him Harvey, because Harvey is a rescue engine, and he learnt about rescuing from tv - he didn't understand the concept before). He asks me to act out danger-rescue narratives with him a lot.

Unfortunately, a side effect is a new kind of echolalia. He is starting to answer me with "Yes Sir" or "Of Course" instead of "yes". I recall DS1 using "I will!" (which the Thomas trains say) instead of "yes" but it wasn't this bad.

Worse, he will repeat stretches of tv programmes to himself with evident enjoyment ("have a drink, you'll feel better", said Percy. "no I won't" said Thomas), and say the odd line or two whilst at meals, clearly oblivious to the fact that he isn't communicating. Often it is prompted by something that has just happened (eg DS1 announces he needs a drink - DS2 then answers with a quote).

We know his condition runs in the family and I recall being very caught up with the patterns and rhythms of certain phrases. I would repeat them to myself endlessly (but in bed alone, not out loud).

Given that he tends to rote-learn at an early stage of understanding things, do I just accept this and ride it out? Or is there anything I can do? It's been going on a few weeks and is a bit irritating. But he has a delayed "theory of mind" and I think the language we would use to explain this might be beyond him.

Have you tried the Greenspan ideas when he does it? So say his response to the word drink you gently but firmly bring the conversation back to what is happening. "hmm there is no Thomas or Percy here but what do you think [DS1 name] wants to drink?

Tis that fine line as ever to whether you should try to redirect them or not.

Dd2 is doing the same with Peppa pig and Ben and holly's little kingdom, she often uses the phrases when talking to us and when playing with her Happy land fairies. I let dd2 got on with it as the more she talks the better her speech becomes, 6 months ago she didn't say a word so at least she is talking (even though its mainly echolalia. Sorry i have no good advice but i will be watching and hoping someone has.

interesting - as DS was like this a lot when his language was still at one word level, so a glaring contrast between his own speech and the telly talk - whereas your Ds hs started this when his language is on the up. With my DS telly talk went down in pretty much direct proportion to his expressive language and understanding going up. I would say - ride it out if not time consuming, but make some effort to break into it - e.g. if he starts talking about Thomas needing a drink, maybe say - DS2, do you need a drink or is Thomas all hot and cross because he is thirsty etc.

I think my DS's telly talk was very stimmy - whereas I wonder if your DS's is more positive - i.e. it's more a case of DS2 thinking - I want to say something - DS1 said something about a drink - I know a good Thomas quote about a drink, I'll say that, shall I...

Dd2 had to act out a episode of peppa pig last week when i bought her some new shoes, she sat in a chair, made me try the shoes on her and she asked for 'red shoes please' (as peppa does) , she spent the rest of the day running around in her red shoes talking like peppa pig.

yes total, what you said in your second paragraph is exactly how I used to think as a child and, whilst of course I may be over-identifying, it does feel like what DS2 is also doing. Sometimes also of course he's just recalling what he enjoyed. If he would only introduce it with, "I like it in Thomas the Tank Engine when they say...." (hmm, now that's something I could model isn't it? ).

A friend once told me about an incident in her chemistry lab when she was a teenager. The teacher tapped two bottles and for some reason the pitch and timbre of the taps was just the same as the first two percussive notes in a Cure song (love cats?) the minor thirds played on something that sounds like glass. She and two other people started singing the song. That's what DS2 seems to experience. Only often he's the only one that "hears" the pattern so he's making an association other people can't follow dammit.

He would like nothing better than for me to join in and supply the next line. He just doesn't understand that I can't.

Come to think of it, he has said "please can I have some more bird" in a very specific tone of voice a few times a week for about 9 months - recalling some funny incident at nursery or other, so maybe this isn't so new.

re: supplying the next line, ds is at a stage where he demands the next line, and is considerate enough to provide it

"cracking toast, gromit. can you say that, mummy? can you say it?"

we've come to an agreement that he can "tell a story" or perform a script after dinner, or in the morning, but that we won't participate with him at the dinner table or at other times when we might be having normal, 2-way conversation.

you're right when you say that they do learn concepts in this way, though, lingle. it can be very annoying, but i think that since it has been ds's main entry point to language learning, we'll continue to allow him to do it at certain times of the day.

Yes Ds does that too. His favourites atm are 'this way follow me!' (chuggington) when he is calling us for something he wants, and also 'thomas is a very useful engine' when we praise him for something.

We just let him get on with it, as he uses these in context most of the time.

We all do this a little in everyday life, though, don't we? In fact it is quite a sophisticated skill in adults. Finding a link to a shared knowledge. An example that springs to mind is this:

Someone in a group realises they've forgotten something, but only have a very limited time to retrieve it. They run as fast as they can.

Someone else in the group says "Run, Forest, Run...."

Everyone laughs, because they've all seen the film "Forest Gump", and they can see the association.

I'm probably not explaining myself very well. What I'm getting at is that the repetition of TV snippets, quotes from films, books, etc., verbatim phrases, are all quite normal in the NT population, and only a cause for concern if they interfere with or replace spontaneous communication.

So I personally don't think we need to eradicate it completely, or worry about it too much, as long as other communication is happening and the echolaic type communication is contextual.

DD1 has lots and lots of stock phrases. "Of course", "Certainly can", "This way, follow me", "My pleasure!", "Your welcome!", "I wonder what he doing today", "It's 3 hours", "We can't eat that, No!"(from I can cook), "Hmm" with exaggerated pose (from Big cook, little cook).

I think it is her way of entering in to conversation, using words that she knows are 'right'.

I probably should have said for DS1 it became a dominating pattern hence redirecting him.

DS1 frequently says "you say x" then when I do he says what he has to say but he cannot move on until I have complied. His SALT says we should break these patterns to encourage him to be less rigid in his thinking, but, imo they are borne out of not understanding the concept in hand so I am not convinced that breaking it would do anything but cause tantrums and give him a different response.

Lou031205, yes, I hear you.

not - I guess this idea of breaking patterns must work for some people otherwise SALTs wouldn't recommend it. But I would feel the same as you. Ds2 used to flush the toilet repeatedly when he was 2/3. If we'd "broken into it", he might have learnt that not only was this comforting, it was also forbidden, but that wouldn't make him "less rigid" would it? He stopped doing it when toilet use became normal and routine for him.

I think one of the huge problems with the "professional-led" model of not-NT development is that success or failure is still so often measured and described according to the observer's perspective, not from the sufferer's point of view.

I appreciate that if a behaviour is causing distress/hurting others, then breaking into it becomes a good in itself - as usual, I can only talk about borderline kids.

DS1 used to do that with Peppa pig. We rode with it and extended the phrases he'd learnt into longer conversations, over time.

DS (now 4) has been doing this for a bit. It started as simply repetition of scenarios + words from, say, Postman Pat, often with some dolls/puppets. Because it's imaginative play (which he had little of last year, say), we have not impeded it, but, following SALT advice, we have tried to intrude by adding things to the script both in terms of action and of words.
I think it's been working well, because, while keeping some key sentences, he talks through what the dolls are doing a lot, and also he now changes the scripts, sometimes with my encouragement, and including things that we are working on at the moment, like prepositions.
I think it is part of your DS gradually grasping simple narratives and longer exchanges. It's the next step, he's just going about it in the way he finds more comfortable, IYSWIM - just apply the same techniques you have with the other steps, because as you can see they work

I hope so sc13, thank you. I just wish he wouldn't do it in front of other children. The insecure 6-year-old on our street likes to try to get DS1(7) to sneer at DS2 when he says his sweet, immature things.
Fortunately DS1 isn't the sneering type and considers DS2 to be his best friend.

Sweet - it must be nice to have a brother

It is for DS2, they have a dream relationship. DS1 doesn't mind DS2 being his little follower (if DS2 is confused in social situations, he just positions himself physically behind Ds1 and does what DS1 does).