If teachers aren't well enough trained in autism...

[caitielo]

if the statementing process is as much of a nightmare for everyone as I am experiencing... if there is no chance of full time 1-1 until proven that he can't cope without it (AKA numerous failures) ... if the bullying rates are so high... if the chances of your own (ASD) child being a bully themselves is four times as likely... if the exclusion rates are so high... if the number of school-home fall outs is too many to keep a track of... if communication is so poor... and if my opinion counts for nothing...

Is it really worth even attempting mainstream until the system changes?

(Just a general query, if you felt there was another choice, bearing all the above in mind, would you take it? If not, what benefits do you feel there is in mainstream?)

Thanks, hopefully this will help me make my own decision...

I wanted J in mainstream because he is high-functioning enought that it is likely that he will live and possibly work in mainstream society as an adult. Also, at the time of choosing his school for his Statement (age 3), we didn't think there was anything other than ADHD going on, which I naively thought could be medicated away! It has been very very hard work keeping him safe and progressing in mainstream, but with a lot of work on my part in securing high funding and challenging unhelpful school attitudes, I'd say it works more than it doesn't now.

Having said that, if there was a school or a unit round here that would be suitable for J i.e. academically able but behaviourally severe ASD children, I would probably look at it with interest. There is nothing suitable here, so I guess for me it's been trying to make the best of a bad situation.

No mostly mainstream is crap for children with ASD, but that doesn't mean that special schools are right either. It is about finding the best of a bad lot imo, but I'm a miserable cow.

My ds is advanced academically, but behind socially. There are no schools for that.

It depends very much on the individual child and the availability in your area.

I've heard of mainstream working when there are small schools or grammar schools (for HFA/AS) which often works due to the structure and consistency, especially if behaviour is not an issue.

I think that something like that might have worked (with 1:1) for DS, if he hadn't been failed so badly at mainstream primary already, which has destroyed his self-esteem and has left him totally disengaged, despite being very bright. He only got a statement this year and he's 11.

As he is now, I wouldn't consider any mainstream school for him (and none of the local ones would consider having him). He needs a lot of intensive support to get back on track. In our area all of the secondary schools are huge and I've heard terrible stories of bullying from parents of children who are already there.

We're appealing for an independent special school which does offer an academic curriculum and I think it will be ideal for DS. But that kind of special school tends to be only in the independent/non-maintained sector, often residential, and it tends to only be offered once mainstream has failed badly.

Thank you all for your input. And what a varied lot it is. I think I am in the same camp as Angry Wasp at the moment - no problems academically but severe "behavioural" issues & no language - nowhere seems to suit in this area - DS would so need a 1-1 full time before I'll be happy to try mainstream. Though I've been told this probably will not happen, not full time before school age.

I was reading the early years curriculum last time we were in the pre-school/school (mainstream and very small, pre-school cope fine but only by being very, very, very flexible on rules - in fact, there are basically none which apply to DS. In one way it's nice they are considering him; in another way, it's not teaching him a thing and definitely not preparing him for school.)
Anyway, I was reading the curriculum and everything in it is geared towards working in large & small social groups, expressive language and imaginative play - what ASD child is going to be able to succeed according to these "targets"? They are effectively failing in mainstream before they even start. I don't want anyone to say or report that my DS is a failure when he is making brilliant progress after a pretty bad regression at Christmas...

We tried other places, visited other schools... this pre-school he is at now is attached to a mainstream school with experience in dealing with all kinds of SEN (why I thought it most suitable) but I just do not think DS is going to cope, or make it easy on anyone. Especially without 1-1. The SEN school looks very nice and it's comforting to think of the support and the advice I would receive, it's nice to know that there are not going to be huge pressures on him to conform INSTANTLY but they'll take it at his pace. But then it's not so great to think that academically, he could be doing better in mainstream.

I just don't know what to do really. Perhaps homeschooling would be the best option for DS. In fact, I do believe that it is the best option... but I'm not sure if I could handle that? It's a huge responsibility to take on and I don't know if I could manage.

So basically, I've got three options. And each is as unappealing as the next... Don't know what to do for the best!

J is very severe behaviourally but academically fine. His first year was basically spent screaming, hitting people, throwing things and running off. He occasionally did some learning, but only probably a couple of hours a week. He often had to be removed from the classroom as the other couldn't work. He didn't actually dislike school though because everyone was so nice to him. he didn't get shouted at or criticised; they just kept trying to involve him. Obviously he can;t have loved it there or he would have been more settled, but I think it was just the horror of not being able to be in control - he's still very controlling now.

Now, he spends most of his time doing what everyone else does, with support, as he has learned that school/ life is about conforming sometimes to what others are doing. I think that lesson could only have been learned over time and I don't think I could have imagined the boy he is now looking at the boy he was then, iykwim.

What I'm trying to say is that full time 1:1 etc. should be possible (and you go to Tribunal if the evidence is there that it's needed but the LA refuse it) and can make a real difference. J is just a different child now and so mainstream can be OK.

I think it depends on the school. J's first school were so tolerant, to an unusual extent. I think it helped that I was so honest about the extent of his violence etc. before he started so they knew what to expect.

When Mum died, there was enough money to take DS out of mainstream where he was failing spectacularly and put him into a caring private school in which he has thrived. It's not an option for most people, but it worked.

Soem teahcers are- am doing an MA in asd and there are a good few etacjers on teh course

and that I think is it: find out about the schools themselves and choose based on that

I have one asd child in MS and one in an SNU

I want ds1 to attend a specialist AS abse at comp (he's yr 5 atm) but MS was I think (just) right for him

Whereas snu is ideal for ds3

Teacher training at primary certainly shite- last year's asd course leader led the teacher training for SN- one afternoon, and many didnt turn up. Gp training even worse; apaprently many med schools dropping asd as time constraints mean they ahve to amke choices

Oh ds3's SNu would suit your child WAsp

It's within MS and they ahve really bright kids there (98th centile academically is highest) but tehy ahev tiny groups and if theya re able access bits of ms with a 1-1

he's very lucky

ds1 is like giveme's son academically OK (bottom end of average in terms of classwork, higher end in terms of ability I would say) but behavioural stuff big problem

Clarissimo, that's shocking though isn't it? I know there are many teachers/staff in mainstream who DO care and ARE willing to help the child, and help keep a good communication system going with the parents, but clearly there are many who are not too. It's devastating to think that if it did go well to begin with (or over time) one year, one teacher who doesn't fully understand ASD could cause horrendous problems, perhaps even irreversible problems, for the kids. There's so, so many things which scare me.

I too think DS would be best suited in a mainstream school with a unit... I have heard quite a lot of good things about this arrangement online; Unfortunately, there is nothing like that within this locality.

We're going to be having a meeting with a teacher who works at the autism centre on Tuesday, she can hopefully provide us with a little bit of insight on how to push the statement forward/request one ourselves without seeming like we think badly of the preschool, (because we really dont, we just think they are too preventative and too lenient, in the sense that they allow DS to do ANYTHING and don't make him stick to any rules or any activity times, what so ever. Which I understand why, DS loves this and it mmakes Pre-school life easier for the staff. But when he hits school age, it's going to be a massive, massive, massive shock and without a 1-1, there will be no chance a teacher could control him.) and also how we might come to a decision - and when - about the special school too. I'd like to give it a shot at mainstream, but it really depends on the provisions available to him.

Thank you to you all, your comments have truly been of use and opened my eyes up to a brighter side....

WRT to the preschool cait, I remember approaching certain teachers and saying look, I have to go at this 100% for my child, but please don't take this as a personal criticism: it isn't meant that way, you have been a lifeline to us, but DS1 needs more than you can give (think I did it with ds3 as well)

It's not just teachers that need training either: our school has a set up where no teachers are about at lunch, just dinner ladies- they refused ASD training! Yet we know that dinner / breaks is for many kids the worst trigger time. Head shrigged it off, me i;d have been not renewing a few contracts

We took ds out of preschool. They were refusing any of our suggestions and although ds was happy there he was being allowed to practise undesirable behaviours.

Since we have kept him at home his stimming has reduced amazingly despite us not even trying to do this, we've simply kept him engaged (in activities of his choice) as much as we can, and generally been more in tune with him. We were worried about him missing out on socialisation experience, but know for a fact he wasn't getting that at preschool as they didn't know how to facilitate it for him. Instead we are taking him to groups ourselves.

It was a really hard decision to make to take him out of preschool, but the instant I had made it I knew it was the right one. Don't feel you HAVE to do something just because it is the norm or to be expected.

Angry are you following a floortime type plan or just finding that system for yourself? (bear with me, am in midst of essay sorry LOL, so intrigued)

Clarrisimo

We're doing ABA, but it is towards the NET/VB side. One of our trainee tutors has floortime experience and training so the 'rewards' are often floortime playbased, i.e ds is able to follow own play agenda but is pushed to extend/vary.

How THAT is ever going to be explained in tribunal I'll never know!

Ah see must be good, can spot it a mile away LOL

Wrt tribunal there is research out there that parental therapy generically is postive and if you want soem e amile me / CAT me, happy to pull it up (if you want specifics I ahve access to uni database so same again- I can at least try and find it)

"look, I have to go at this 100% for my child, but please don't take this as a personal criticism: it isn't meant that way, you have been a lifeline to us, but DS1 needs more than you can give"

Thank you VERY much for this line... I shall memorise it and use it on them. If it doesn't get me anywhere then I'll really have to consider options once more. Possibly pulling him out or reducing the hours he is there (and he isn't there a lot.)

He isn't getting a lot of social benefits from being in this environment either and to be honest we have far more success when I take him places. Sometimes he will join in with older children, for a short while, and he isn't bothered about anyone being in his space or doing what he wants to do when he is out with us. At pre-school, he pushes kids away if they come near him, he wont take turns, he isolates himself as much as possible.
He just doesn't fit in their one size for all standards, not even slightly and you can't just mould a child with ASD into something else. (Something I often think is a good thing!)
I don't know what more they can do really, possibly take on more of my opinions and hurry along the statement process. The fact is, he needs that 1-1. they already said he can't go earlier or stay later for his lunch because they only have 2 staff on at a time at lunch and they couldn't handle him plus the others - So what do they think is going to happen when it's school time? Or when he is meant to go full days? There are less staff, so how will they cope? He needs the 1-1 or he at least needs one hell of a lot of practice beforehand.
The thing which gets me is on one hand they are saying he isn't in enough need for a statement and wont receive it by school time. But the next minute they are saying he is too boistrous and busy to handle with when staff members are down. On 3 occasions, when ONE member of staff has been off sick they've told me, when we already got there, that I would have to stay with him. I don't know whether it costs them money or anything to go through the early years action, and action plus (???) but I'm starting to think it must do because why else would they not want to push for extra help for him?

Angry Wasp, do you have a date for tribunal? Will this be for the place in a school you want your son in? Sorry if that's a bit tmi to ask for.

TBH your child sounds much like ds3 who has blossomed immeasurably since going to his SNU. Including ebcoiming dry and verbal. Go for what you think he needs