Should I turn down More Than Words course?

[SMacK]

Been offered it but will have to give up SLT (ineffective anyway) for the duration and an unspecified amount of time afterwards.

Thing is, ds is verbal and fast making progress. I am worried that the course will be too basic for me and him. I have been a student of the MN approach for a year now and cannot imagine ds progressing any faster, nor me learning anything new. I have the MTW book and whilst it still gives me the odd idea, most of it isn't really applicable.

WWYD?

my experience is of It Takes Two To Talk. The Hanen course was way ahead of any other NHS SALT received by DS - the target setting part of the sessions and the home visits were extremely useful. I felt that it was a more positive, individualised next step types approach than other NHS SALT had been able to provide, somehow the Hanen SALTs were more flexible/responsive. So unless you are already acquainted with SALT running the course and don't feel they will contribute anything, I would think hard before turning it down. But I do appreciate that the time/childcare commitment may be difficult for you.

Why is the SLT ineffective? Better to change that rather than you go on a course for something you already know about.

Hmmm, it is run by our NHS SLTs and it is 'based on MTW' apparently ! They have put their logo on the invitation with Hanen's alongside again!

I might consider it if it were 'ITTTT' though as perhaps that is the next stage!?

ms I have been battling with the SLT for over year now trying to get things changed. I have just send a mamoth killer letter in response to their response to a first killer letter. I think we are now in a position where we could move from ineffective to effective, - plus we have a forthcoming tribunal which should kick them into gear.

The letter doesn't say anything about home visits.

Am I being fobbed off again with crappy half-hearted provision?

useful article on hanen site:-

www.haneninontario.org/Hanen2002/pages/LearningResourceCentre/ResearchAndPublications/articles/moreT hanWordsArticle.htm

the home visits are I think meant to be for the purpose of getting video footage for you and SALT to review, so I suppose technically speaking they could argue that the videoing could be done at the SALT centre.....

Thanks TC LOL at their diagram though. I think we are kinda doing the Denver model, but that is really just modern ABA but that is underpinned by developmental education.

I've done the Earlybird course and didn't learn anything there.

This is the second time they have offered this to me. I think it is a way of clocking up hours for statemented children using one therapist and 10 families, and then claiming 10 x the no. of hours off of the LEA. I know the first time I turned it down the H of SLT's face dropped.

If their 'version' of Hanen is anything like their version of PECS I think I'll give it a miss. Perhaps I'll find a properly run 'ITTTT' course nearby and ask them to fund that for us instead. I could threaten to send Hanen my dodgy letters from them if they don't???????

I loved mtw and was the best thing we did for ds. It does take account of children at all different levels so won't matter if your ds is progressing. And think a course should be better than the book as it is massive and quite hard to read meaningfully. You will probably also get a lot from meeting the other parents on the course.
I did Early Bird after MTW and didn't find it nearly as good. Found it quite a depressing course, whereas MTW seems to lift your expectations of what your child can do.

I think you should go, particularly as you have a tribunal looming. Any indication that you are being unreasonable is going to work against you, and tribunal panel members are not going to have done the intricate research you will have done into each individual provision. IMHO I think that a tribunal panel member will (quite possibly unjustifiably so) read 'turned down MTW course' and see you as being very 'my way or the highway', and that will work against you.

I know it is a different service, but reading primary education appeal threads on here, I have seen posts from people involved in tribunals, and they always caution against rejecting out of hand the unsuitable school, because the parent will automatically be seen to be unreasonable, and it will put the panel's back up.

You need to be strategic here, and remember that you can not prove a therapy ineffective without evidence, and you cannot get evidence unless you do it.

Thanks for the helpful messages.

I think I might write to them, thanking them for their invitation, informing them that I am very interested but that given our previous history with their dept and previous documents sent with reams of evidence that they haven't the faintest idea what his capabilities are (not put like that of course) and ask them why they are recommending it for ds.

My biggest worry is that only the very last few pages of each chapter in the book are now relevant to ds and I don't want to waste time (and turn down slt input) in order to go back to getting a non-verbal child to talk by say, giving him a yoghurt without a spoon etc etc.

Having said that, I would LOVE to meet other parents in the area. That is something I have been unable to do so far and I'd put up with the course just for that PROVIDED it didn't reduce the input that ds will get at his new school.

I'm also worried that if I do the course they might try to attribute ds' progress on that - hmm.

These decisions are never easy are they? - strategically I mean.

But more than words is most definitely not about this. My son was completely verbal when we did the course. It is about increasing interaction and would work with any child. Ours was done mainly through videos designed by the Hanen trust so in a sense it doesn't matter who runs it.
I really would go - it's the best course we ever did.

Is it definitely the MTW course or do are the course leaders Hanen-Trained and allowed to deliver parts of the course. The LEA where I am offers a course where the majority of the material is MTW but there are no home visits or anything like that - all just giving a general overview - showing the Hanen Clips, going through the Hanen stages for want of a better word (Own Agenda through to Partner or somefink) IYKWIM.

We didn't find ours that useful BUT we are able to say that we travelled 2 hours every Wednesday morning for 13 weeks, did the home work, took an active part in the course (my DH is self-employed so it cost us in lost earnings too), roped in the in-laws who took time off work to look after the DC's, so gives us a strong position to negotiate from with "them" whichever them it happens to be at the time....

I have just finished MTW and it has been the best thing I've done in terms of my own skills and confidence, plus meeting other parents. My DS is definitely at the 'top' end of their scale but it doesn't matter, I still learned loads.

As someone else has said do check that it is the 'full blown' Hanen - home visits are an integral part of that, they then video you and child and show that back to the rest of the meeting. It is soooooooo helpful to be able to watch yourself back and then be coached on what you're doing well and what can be improved on. If it's a 'Hanen-lite' version then I dunno if it would be worth it - like you say, you can read the book yourself, it's the way its then taught at the sessions that bring it to life.

Our SLTs are about to go on the training for Talkability and because they now know us I think we're fairly certain to get a place on that when they come back and run it, so that's another thing to keep in mind.

However, I do have to say that if it was a choice between MTW and SALT I don't know what I would choose....

The Partner stage of MTW requires that the child can take part in simple conversations with minimal or no visual prompts so is quite advanced for pre school ASD child - only 2 in our group were near that level but the SALT was able to suggest a lot for them - but this will depend on who you get running it I suppose.

Thanks Cyber. I think I am just suspicious of the fact that it is 'based' on Hanen. I don't want a repeat of the PECS fiasco where it actually damaged ds' progress rather than helped it.

I am currently on the more than words programme and there are parents with verbal kids. I find it really useful and its great to meet other parents in similar positions. One of the SALTs came to the house before the course to assess DS for suitability.
I would say take any input you can get. Its also your chance to talk to a SALT every week about issues relating to your child.

It's not likely to damage his progress and you can always leave after the first few meetings if you feel it's not right for him - One parent did this on our course but his daughter was way ahead of the Partner level and really had no issues with language at all - though had behaviour issues.

Ah yes, - good idea. Weekly access to SLT. Never thought of that.

Do you think there is any way on earth they would allow one of DS' new teachers to attend instead/as well?

Its about social communication as well as finding reasons to help them talk

Okay, right. I'll book a place then and talk to ds' SLT about appropriateness when I can get hold of her. I'll also try and see if there is any way a member of staff from ds' nursery can attend too. He is going to be there for over a year and I am sending my tutor in with him anyway so their staff numbers should be covered on that day, if they are willing.

THEY definately need to learn how to keep their language simple etc.

I would go on it and I'm infamous for turning down everything!

Provided they were doing the at-home video sessions, that is.

in fact, even if the course leader isn't good, you would probabl still find the home video stuff useful....

Lingle I phoned up and asked about the home-video sessions in the end and they said that they DID happen, they just didn't tell you about them in the letter, and waited until you had got going on the course as it might put people off apparently.

SO there you go. The SLT I spoke to was very helpful actually and has been quite a bit in the not so distant past. If it wasn't for my documentary evidence I might start to think the last year and absolutely awful provision was just a figment of my imagination. I'm so stung by it though that it is hard not to be doubtful about future offerings iyswim though.

Right then. I'll give it a go. At the very least it is a course I can put on my CV if I ever decide to collect all I have learnt about this whole rigmorole and take it to market, at the very best it will give me some skills to help ds.

Thank you everyone. It is so helpful to have this place to work things through. My initial reaction was very very different to the way I feel about it now, and my whole attitude actually and I'm feeling much more positive.

good for you! You can always drop out if you think its crap. At least you can be seen to be giving it a go.