Who else can remember responding to others with seemingly unrelated verbatim phrases?

[lingle]

A penny has dropped - I've realised that what I did as a child is what is discussed on this board under "echolalia" or "self-stimulation" or "repeating verbatim phrases".

At, say, age 7 or 8, Child A would say something to me. I would feel nervous. The pattern and pitch of what the child said would resonate really strongly, and so would some of the individual words, especially words that I liked or didn't like or had heard in some comedy programme on tv (like a student who is reminded by everthing they hear of some phrase in a Monty Python sketch).

In my head, it was all very logical. Child A would say "A!". I would think "hmm, A - yes, like B - and C! - EEE!". And I would reply "F!" - somewhat nervously.

To which Child A would say "You're strange" or "you're funny" and I would feel sad.

Good news though is that by the time I was a teenager doing English literature, it became a fantastic skill - you can "see" and "hear" all the echos in the phrases used in sentences within long novels - you can remember the echos both within the text and with other texts.
All quite creative really . Rather lonely at the time though! I never understood why they didn't understand, that was the pity of it.

But this is yet another example of how a behaviour is treated as evidence that the child doesn't want to communicate, whereas in fact the child may be doing their level best to respond - it's just that she has processed the message differently to the way other people do.

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I never experienced that (I tended to experience a blockage where either no words at all would come to mind, no matter how hard I tried to find them, or all my thoughts would tumble out at once - I do still suffer from some degree of aphasia) but DS1 is king of the non-sequiteur and what you said reads like just the sort of word association game that would get him to the responses he makes.

Don't worry Lingle, I always find your posts interesting, I am constantly delving into my (and DH's) childhood and getting excited when I make links between DS2 and our younger selves.

At the moment I am worried about the amount of time DS2 spends talking (well moving his lips along to his internal dialogue) to himself when at school. Is it that different to me training imaginary ponies instead of hanging out with the other girls?

DH and I were both slightly strange children, we just thought we were more clever than the other children .

DS2 loves to communicate too (despite school thinking he is totally happy on his own), he just needs other gentle small boys to come up to him and invite him to chat about pokemon cards or beastquest books. A friend has a lovely girl who knows all about Pokemon cards, she is the only girl DS2 has ever had an animated conversation with, I am lining her up as daughter in law material!

We don't assume that shy people want to be alone, just that they find it difficult to join in.

Am I getting this all a bit confused, Lingle? To my mind (and I have always been described as quite 'black and white' about issues), it doesn't matter what the thought process behind the apparent lack of appropriate communication is, it is the presentation that is significant. Which is more than the words used.

What I mean is, well let's take an example. If you were asking me lots of questions, and I said "I didn't expect the Spanish Inquisition!", you might respond "Nobody expects the Spanish Inquisition!!" Now, that is lifting a complete verbatim phrase. But no-one would think it unusual (as long as they knew Monty Python), and nobody would think it inappropriate.

Neither is it inappropriate to respond awkwardly when you are shy, or to sometimes 'get it wrong' in conversation. We all do. Sometimes because there is a shared history with private jokes which we are not party to. Other times because we are not paying enough attention to body language, etc.

But what is a cause for concern is when there is an inability or restriction on the social interaction a person is making, and when the social 'awkwardness' someone exhibits makes them isolated from peers. Then there is concern, and possibly investigation as to why. Because for that child/adult the lack of social interaction skills is becoming an impairment on day-to-day functioning.

I don't think that it is evidence that a child doesn't want to communicate. But it is evidence that there is something limiting his/her ability to communicate in the 'normal' range of communication.

Of course, that alone doesn't = ASD. You need a 'triad' of impairment to get that diagnosis. But not ASD doesn't = NT either, always.

DD1 has social communication difficulties. Not having ASD doesn't mean that she is just a bit shy.

I think lingle is describing a middle ground lou - somewhere between normal boob ups and a diagnosable social communication disorder - I suppose what might be described as aspie traits.

I say this from the point of view of someone who may well have been diagnosed with AS had they been at school today (clin psych I saw for OCD (a common comorbid) agreed). I have made some social mistakes that have resulted in overt nastiness towards me.

DS's better NHS SALT did recognise echolalia being a strategy - of DS wanting to respond, but not being sure how to, so using echolalia as a way round that.

V. interesting post lingle - I have often suspected a connection between the music/singing part of the brain and echolalia - as both involve reproducing strings of words without necessarily needing to understand them.

Lou, thanks for reading my incoherent musings! I'm certainly talking about something far stronger than the examples you give in your second and third paragraphs. I was pretty terrified of another child talking to me most of the time up to about 11.

I think that my DS2 has a hypersensitivity to patterns: whether this results in early jigsaw doing or early piano playing or early letter recognition - he picked up the shapes and patterns very early - too early in fact. There are patterns in language too - timbre, pitch being the simple ones - plus, when you get more verbal, associations that are particular to you and your brain. I think his language problems occurred because he was oversensitive to those patterns and paid less attention to the association of words with particular contexts.

It's genetic, he gets it from my side of the family, and, whilst my parents didn't think I had a "language problem", it's apparent now that I did have a problem processing language.

i'm not really that convinced by the "triad" tbh and was glad to hear they are getting rid of it.

And I hate the way they have to diagnose by looking at the presentation. It's such indirect evidence.

Anyway, all very self-regarding

Very interesting thread. Can I pick up on Ouryve's post, even though it's not really directly related to Lingles OP?

Ds1 (8, dx of dyspraxia) sometimes has similar language difficulties to the ones you describe Ouryve - either a blockage where he seems unable to explain what he means, or reams and reams of rambling sentences. I was with him yesterday when he was trying to explain the plot of a book he'd read to a group of girls - they switched off very quickly when he started hesitating and groping for words and I noticed one of them was stifling giggles, even when he got into his stride, as he was going into huge amounts of bewildering detail (and he also uses a lot of hand gestures and facial expressions when he talks). I never know whether it's a good idea to try to help him out or not in these situations - what would you advise, as someone who's been through it? I have suggested to him in the past that he tries to give short answers to his peers (this is when he's complained about other children not listening to him) but he says he can't do it. Is it something I should practise with him? He is very very sensitive about it, and I don't want to draw attention to it more than I need to - his speech has improved tremendously in the last few years and this only really happens now when he is very tired, nervous or self-conscious.

I should add (desperately trying to link back to the OP) that I can ramble on for England and often go totally off the point when I'm talking (as you may be able to tell...)

sphil Kids can be so effing cruel, probably without even realising it

Unfortunately, despite that experience of my own, I don't know what to suggest. I had no help, but naturally grew in confidence and mostly grew out of it. To be honest, I think ceasing to give a damn about being the quiet one is what eventually made it easier for me and I know I can usually hold up my end of a conversation, now - unless I'm tired and then I just cannot speak coherently at all (Much to DS1's amusement and dismay!) I've also learnt to avoid getting into conversations with people with a natural inclination to browbeat others - it's not like they would listen to what I had to say if I was fully fluent and coherent, anyhow.

One important thing I have learned to say is "I haven't finished talking" if someone (usually my husband) jumps in when I'm trying to talk about something. He has self admitted difficulties with listening, anyhow, so it's a two way thing where we've learnt to accommodate each other! He actually likes that I can be fairly taciturn and doesn't care about my odd bout of verbal diarrhoea, since that's usually confined to when we've had a drink and he's past caring himself, by then!

That's very reassuring Ouryve - I feel instinctively that I shouldn't interfere (except to give him strategies - the 'I haven't finished talking' comment is a good one.) I do feel that he's growing in confidence - and if I try too hard to help him, this will dent it.

My mum always used to remind me to think about what I was saying. Of course, I found that really confusing and even annoying, since I had thought really, really hard about what I was saying

Yes - Ds1's reaction is EXACTLY the same! In fact it sometimes seems that the harder he thinks, the more pronounced his difficulties become. I think it may be a milder version of what DS2 (who has severe autism) seems to experience - he can often say things spontaneously but not to order. Both of them find answering questions much, much harder than initiating speech - yet they are at completely opposite ends of the spectrum.

DS1 has quite a lot of difficulty answering questions. I was cleaning up DS2, the other day, after he had jumped on me for a lovely hug with poo all over his hands and DS1 asked (erm, told) me to look for his scissors. In a conversation where I was trying to explain to him how I was rather too tied up to do that, I asked him "what am I doing, DS1" whilst wiping poo off DS2's legs. Instead of telling me the obvious, that I was changing DS2's nappy, he asked me lots of questions, instead.

I've given up asking DS1 about his day on the way home from school. His stock answer used to be "I don't know." but since he's become angrier and more anxious, it's changed into "shut up." Even when he's excited about it, he's not much better. I allowed him to go to the postbox about 8 houses away while I stood and watched (DS2 was crashed out on the sofa) and when I told DH about the grown up job he did for me and DH asked him about it, his reply was "We need nail varnish remover to go to Home Bargains". His brain was fixated on the pink fingernails a year 6 girl had given him, this morning, at that particular moment!

lingle, I think I wasn't clear. My second and 3rd paras were both examples of NT communication issues.

I suppose what I am getting at (and I am going to be really blunt here) is that I don't get this trying to 'explain away' difficulties. I don't 'get' what seems to me to be a splitting of hairs between the nuances of communication issues.

The fact is that for children with communication difficulties, whatever the root 'cause', be it ASD, 'SCD' or a processing difficulty, they are affected by it, it does isolate them, and it does 'disable' them.

I am sorry if I have offended anyone. But I am struggling to get SALT for DD1. It is 4 months since she last saw anyone. And it is so frustrating to see her speech become paralysed if there are more than 2 children there.

It is frustrating to see her trying to find words, and use a string of adjectives to try and communicate the noun that eludes her.

It is frustrating that people don't understand what she is saying, and so think she isn't saying anything worth discovering.

It is frustrating trying to talk to her or ask her questions, and she is talking on her own agenda, not even hearing what we are saying.

It is heartbreaking when she goes in to meltdown because she has heard just one word of an entire sentence and thinks we are doing something completely different from what we are.

I hate her SAL difficulties more than anything else. Because they stop her from making friends, from being able to communicate her wants and desires.

lou - I fully sympathise with all those points, I have been through very similar with DS, and although he now speaks fluently in sentences, he still sometimes struggles to make himself clear.

I think the reason that lingle seems to be splitting hairs is that this sort of echolalia as an aspie trait can exist even where expressive and receptive language are fine, even above average for a child. And I genuinely find it useful, as lingle can express herself rather better than my DS, to have an insider view of why one might use echolalia.

I fully appreciate that those of us with borderline kids - on the borderline between language delay/language disorder and ASD may find it somewhat more interesting to chew the fat than others over the technicalities.

btw Lou I am fully up shit creek DX wise with my DS - he's been discharged from SALT as allegedly within normal range, and teacher thinks he's fine. so technically he doesn't have SN and I must be some Munchausen's mama for even continuing to post on this board. Despite the fact that EVERY parent to an SN kid on this and other boards who have met DS agree he has a degree of language impairment.

now that DS has turned 6 I have become even more shit-scared about his schooling/future as being socially vulnerable.

Yes, yes, I do see. I do think that DD1 has ASD traits. And when I describe her, many people say 'she sounds like she has Autism...". But can I get anything like that acknowledged by the Paed? No. She has GDD as a result of her brain malformation, and therefore, the Paed (who is a specialist in ASD and neurodisability) thinks it is all down to that.

But I suppose that is my point. She may not have an ASD dx, but if she is behaving in an ASD manner, and the limitations she is displaying are similar to children with ASD, does it really matter whether her traits are ASD traits or any other? The net result is just the same : She struggles to understand and be understood. She becomes isolated and 'different'.

Perhaps it is my perception that is at fault. I see lingle as trying to 'NTise' her DS's language difficulties, and aviod an ASD tag. Meanwhile, I am desperate in a way to get that tag, in the hope that finally DD's language difficulties are recognised as being as big as they are, and therefore she gets help.

I put in a complaint to the head of children's SALT, so hopefully DD may actually see someone who gives a monkey's about her SAL difficulties soon

lou - have you spoken to your local branch of NAS to get a feel for whether there is any better provision for SALT etc after an ASD DX? Also when your DD starts school will she see a SALT regularly there? I do sympathise, as at least with the ASD DX you do feel there is more of a community of parents/support groups out there, whereas this can be lacking for less specific SN....

I'ld say I am somewhere between you and lingle - lingle turned down IIRC asd assessment, DS had the assessment and we got a nice decisive answer of probably not. As school and SALT think not as well, I don't want to push for re-assessment right now - the Munchausen's mama labelling fear.....

This thread is very interesting.

One thing I can assure you TC is that very often SLT is reduced upon diagnosis of asd because there is research out there that shows SLT to be largely ineffective, and it is this research that SLT's seem to work to or quote, thereby taking on a purely monitoring role.

However, the reason SLT is ineffective is imo purely down to the fact that it is rare to have a SLT tha REALLY knows about asd and how the mind may work. Often too, it is impossible to get the child to actually do any therapy due to behavioural issues. The end result of these amalgamated is no progress.

I agree with your points TC about the end effect being the same in terms of the outcomes for the childre (i.e. social isolation etc), but I think Lingle makes very valuable contributions that can help posters here think creatively about the 'problems' and therefore the solutions.

I think splitting hairs is the only way really to get down to the detail enough to search for those solutions and I'm sure you'll agree that Lingle is quite exceptional at 'solutions'!

Sorry TC I'm not sure why I put you. Where I put your name in my last post I meant Lou! Sorry too Lou

troublewithtalk

I see your point, but we had no access to Earlybird because our County don't agree with it's approach . We don't have Hanen either, but a course 'based' on Hanen but which has a waiting list of over a year.

By the time we had reached the top of the waiting list we knew more than we'd learn on Earlybird or Hanen anyway.

I think really, the point I am trying to make is simply that having a dx isn't always the golden ticket it is perceived to be, and most people (people on this board anyway) end up researching and delivering the therapy themselves. Hard fought provision often turns out to be not really worth the battle.

I think there is a more general problem with some (no one on this board) trying to 'NTise' autism and to see it as being like an NT person but with some quirks in language - whereas what I think of as being autistic is a disabling condition with learning and language difficulties.