Please please help me decide what to say on Monday

[MinnieMalone]

LONG sorry sorry sorry

DS 5 yrs old, been in reception since Sept (was at nursery attached to the school for a year before that). Has behavioural issues, mainly seem to be around social interaction/communication. He was difficult at home, but seems to be improving a lot, so his bad behaviour mainly seems to manifest itself in group situations, especially at school. Comes across as very 'normal' and extremely bright, but finds unstructured/unsupervised situations where the rules aren't clear very stressful, and acts this out by being aggressive/violent and generally uncontrollable.

He's been on Early Years Action Plus / School Action Plus since he started nursery and continuing into reception. He is also on the G&T register (I found this out just a few days ago and when I questioned why we didn't know, was told 'it isn't something necessarily shared with parents' - is this accurate?) and has been since last year. He has an IEP, they've tried lots of strategies, we have got independent referrals and he is being seen by a SALT, CAMHS, Ed Psych, Comm Paed and soon to be seen by an Occupational therapist.

The school feel he needs a statement to remain in mainstream ed. I have agreed to write the initial letter requesting statutory assessment, which I plan to do before Easter holidays (juggling an ill younger sibling and full time work commitments with all of this...)

Anyway, long story short...

He has been 'internally excluded' six times since starting reception, which means he spends a few hours with the Head in her office or with his learning mentor outside the class setting. I have never been sure about this method - is it punishment? Is it a cooling off period? is it helpful? Never been convinced, but up until now the relationship with the school has been constructive and cordial andI have given their methods the benefit of the doubt.

Today he got into a minor altercation with another child, a teaching assistant intervened and DS got very very cross with her and had a very serious tantrum, threw things at the TA and eventually the whole class was evacuated and DS had to be restrained by 3 members of staff and eventually removed from the room

I didn't get the call to my phone so DH was the one who spoke to the school. DS had to be collected from school immediately by my mum. They didn't say he was officially excluded, but obviously he has been. The SENCo said that DS has been excluded on Monday and will have to go to a 'partner school' for the day as part of their 'Behaviour Improvement Programme'. DH flipped out, said no way, he's only five yrs old, not appropriate etc. SENCo backed down and has arranged a meeting with us at 9am on Monday to discuss.

Firstly, the head 'may or may not' be able to attend, which I think is piss poor. We have heard nothing from her throughout this whole situation with DS, and I just think she should at least have phoned us herself, sent an official letter home re the exclusion and/or tried to make the meeting on Monday.

Secondly, DS remains officially excluded on Monday and 'until we can reach an agreement with the school about how to proceed'. I feel so angry and despairing. He is five. Can they do this?

Third, AIBU to think that bringing a 5 yr old with obvious SEN to a strange school miles away on a Monday as punsihment is NOT appropriate? i cannot believe they expect us to do this!

lastly, what the FUCK shall i do about this wholesituation? i feel so, so desperate. At the moment i feel like the situation is unworkable, DS is suffering, the school are pissed off, I am atthe end of my tether. But cannot see any alternatives.

Please, please advise anyone with more knowledge or sense! Thanks x

YANBU at all to disagree about him being sent to the other school or thinking the HT should attend the meeting.

However, exclusions for violent behaviour are unfortunately common and I can see why they happen - it's about protecting others and 'sending out a messge' and while it doesn't help your and your child in the short term, I think it will help in getting a Statement (which you do need). My son was very like yours though was Statemented pre-Reception.

What needs to happen is that the Statementing process needs to happen ASAP. If you show you're doing that, the school might put interim funding support in place in the meantime. What are all the outside agencies suggesting?

I know how hard this all is - been there, really similarly - but it will improve if you can get the Statement.

Firstly, YANBU. That's a ridiculous punishment for any 5 year old and I doubt your son will even know what it's for, days after the event.

For children who have major difficulties with social interaction, short periods taken away form the hubbub of a classroom can be helpful in alleviating the stress that causes them to act out. My DS, in year 1, is on a reduced timetable at the moment, anyhow because of similar issues and when he is at school, he has a quiet room to escape to, if he needs it.

I wish I had a concrete suggestion for you. If and when you do get to actually speak to the head, it would be worth finding out if they genuinely think he would be easier to deal with with a statement and the funding/resources/dedicated support that comes with it. I would also ask if they are planning on drawing up a plan for him, in the short term to help ensure they don't find themselves in another situation with him that escalates out of control (or if, indeed, they just want to let the inevitable happen and hope you vote with your feet so he's not their problem any more.

Yeah. I've probably been no help there.

Re:G&T, btw, it's largely a pen pushing exercise. Schools are required to list heir top 10% of pupils on the G&T register. They don't have to let parents know about it.

i think you are right that ds going to the other school for a day is not an appropriate response in any way. it can only be counterproductive. i wouldn't agree to this and am surprised that the school think it is a good idea. perhaps they feel they have to offer alternative schooling?

perhaps if your ds is off on monday, though, it gives the staff a bit of time to discuss strategies and next steps.

our ds has just been assessed by OT and we found her to be excellent and full of good support ideas. i hope you have the same positive results with your ds. good luck.

The first thing I'd want to know is how the situation escalated to the point that a 5 year old child needed 3 grown adults to restrain him. Why didn't they leave him to cool down once the children were out?

J has needed 3 people before, until they had proper restraint training, when they only needed 2 after that!

givememoresleep, you are obviously very experienced in this, but if J had been left in the room, alone, would he have eventually got to a point where he would calm down, or would he have injured himself?

I am just wondering what was gained by restraining the child, when the children had been evacuated already. Surely his anger would have peaked and subsided on its own eventually?

I must admit that DD is not very strong yet.

Minniemalone - It sounds like the school are failing ( probably not deliberately) you and more importantly your son. Have you read the Lamb report

'A consequence of the lack of expertise at school has been the inability to deal
with more challenging children within the classroom. However we cannot accept
a situation in which children with SEN are eight times more likely to be excluded
than their peers. With more expert support in schools and with new guidance to
help schools deal with issues better and earlier, we expect to see a steep decline
in disproportionate exclusions'

www.dcsf.gov.uk/lambinquiry/downloads/8553-lamb-inquiry.pdf

It should give you some ammunition for questions to ask the school on Monday. Most importantly it might establish what else you you should know but havent been given information about, that will help to support your son in school. Sorry I cant be more help than that. I had issues with ds and I realised that despite all the sound bites the school had not actually included me that much and that I had no idea of the experience of those initially providing some support to ds. Everytime I spoke to the school they would give me new information/ issues that should have been conveyed sooner. I discovered the main driver was not my sons needs but funding or rather a shortage of it. So DS took a year to get the correct support and even get on to the list to have assessments. A special case was made for some immediate support once I started kicking up a fuss. Dont be shy about putting your foot down, sadly for most of us it is the only way. Statementing is a long process what do they intend to do in the short term that is going to be truely effective and how often are they going to review their strategie? eg 6 months between IEP is probably too long for your son issues to be an effective IEP.

Restraint without proper training (there are several different named 'styles' but all are taught by external agencies..and not usually in mainstream primary schools) is ILLEGAL.

Obviously your first priority if your DS and getting a Statement on the go is a vital step, but while that is going on they can't just pin him down when he blows a fuse.. poor boy must be scared witless.

I work in a school (special) where restraint is sometimes needed..rarely and as a last resort, and there are VERY clear steps before it is allowed..
there HAS to be a risk assessment for the individual child before things get to that stage, there HAS to be a behavioural management plan which specifies the need, the reasons and the form of the restraint.
If they removed the other /children, WHY were they then manhandling your DS out??
Frankly I would be shooting emails to everyone I could think of.. the head, the SENCO and the LEA etc asking (politely) how they justify their current actions and how they intend to proceed within the law.I would also suggest that they delay the meeting, or reschedule it for a time which is convenient for the head AND the LEA to attend..the LEA should be involved.
Trying to ship DS off to another school for a bit is simply poor practice too

And as for the head possibly not being there for the meeting... sounds like avoidance to me.
Each child has the right to education in a least restrictive environment.. this is enshrined in UK LAW.

Sorry I think I just got on my soap box, but it distresses me to hear that any school would restrain a 5 year old
Hugs!

[http://www.dcsf.gov.uk/lambinquiry/downloads/8553-lamb-inquiry.pdf]

www.dcsf.gov.uk/lambinquiry/downloads/8553-lamb-inquiry.pdf 3rd time lucky.

Lou, would have (and still often does) caused injury to himself and damaged the room terribly if left to himself. That is why the school now gives him a room to go to with virtually nothing in, so that he can't harm himself. He can be left to calm down in that BUT, when he was little, he needed to be held every time he got like that as he couldn't calm himself down and so it was kinder to help him, I think. Now sometimes he can but it has been a long road.

I agree that it is distressing to hear about and the correct training is needed but sometimes, trust me, it is very necessary to protect everyone (and the child themself, definitely)

Sorry for late reply. Going to read all your responses and digest - will be back! Thank you so, so much each one of you for taking the time to r4espond x

Sorry to hear you're having such a tough time with the school. I'm a mainstream primary teacher but until recently was the lead behaviour teacher at a very rough, inner London primary so there was lots of behaviour that needed 'leading'!

From what you've said I would advise you to ask the Head why, if the school is in a BIP, your son hasn't received something in the way of 1:1 input re: anger management. At my last school I'd have had the behaviour outreach team in like a flash for a 5-year-old who was exhibiting behaviour such as you describe; he clearly needs help with self-regulating his response to tricky situations and this is something they should be able to support both him and his teachers with. SALT should also have developed a programme for him or else be running a social skills group of which he is a member. Given he has some communication issues it is hardly surprising that he finds it stressful when in an unusual or group situation as he may not be able to think about and process the verbal communication he needs to ask for help/to leave/what on earth is going on.

Personally I don't feel being sent to the partner school for a day is either appropriate nor helpful for a 5-year-old who has yet to suss out how to communicate his anxieties to adults who already know him at his own school. The internal exclusions sound reasonable but I feel it would be more productive if some calm/learning mentor time could be built into his day so he gets that attention before he flips out - I've included this in children's PSPs (pastoral support plans) and found it incredibly useful as it gives some structure and predictability to when that 1:1 time will be available and, if set up well, can also be used to pre-empt/avert tantrums e.g. supply teacher on a Monday morning - child can have the 1:1 time with the allocated person then thus giving an opportunity for a trusted adult to rehearse/role play the unfamiliar situation.

In terms of being sent home from school, it is illegal to do so unless it is recorded as an official exclusion - on Monday you need to request the letter that you are legally entitled to which will state the reasons for his exclusion and give contact details for the LA parent partnership who may be able to help you with additional support/advice. They cannot issue an open exclusion - it has to be fixed term (usually up to about 5 days but sometimes 10) or permanent.

Unfortunately needing to be restrained by 2+ adults is not uncommon in mainstream schools either for the child's own safety or that of others. We are allowed to do it and the majority of mainsream schools will have at least some of its staff trained - in my current school we've all been trained, including the office staff. If a child is considered to be someone for whom restraint may be needed it should be detailed in an IEP/PSP. Seeing other children 'kick off' can be frightening for the other children in a class too, I'm not saying this means every child who explodes should be excluded but it is sometimes necessary in order to put into place useful and appropriate support. The school has a dity of care to all its pupils and staff so does need to consider this after an outburst that resulted in so much disruption and upset for your son, his peers and the adults involved.

On Monday I would ask the following:

• for a formal letter about the exclusion
• for a specific end date for that exclusion
• for an urgent referral for behaviour outreach (perhaps from the partner school)
• for him to be included in a social skills group set up by SALT
• for the above two interventions to liaise and feed into a 'help me' system that helps him communicate anxiety
• for the learning mentor/someone to provide daily, timetabled 1:1 time outside of the classroom for him to chill/play/chat/check-in
• how the school are meeting his needs as a gifted/talented child
• how much success they've had with getting a statement for a child with behavioural problems (I don't know of any statements having been given for the level of behaviour that you've described I'm afraid)

It would also be worth asking more about the aims of being in the BIP partnership - is it an arrangement whereby some children can be taught there part-time (we had some of our pupils at the LA EBD school part-time).

Good luck with the meeting, I hope the school are able to come up with a way forward that will help your son to succeed at school.

Hi all.

Just wanted to say thanks for your input and advice over the last few days.

SE13Mummy, thank you especially for your input as a teacher. Really, really helpful.

We had the meeting this morning and the Head was there, along with the SENCo.

Slightly worrying that they didn't seem to have a clear idea of whether or not he was officially excluded, and sort of made it up on the spot in relation to things that I and my husband said . In the end, they/we agreed that he had been officially excluded on Friday (I'm still waiting for the letter, apparently I will get it later today), but he was allowed to re-join his class today after the meeting (all a bit lax, but we got the outcome we wanted, which is that he didn't spend another minute outside of school during school hours!).

Outcomes:

He doesn't have to attend this ludicrous BIP in a partner school (they couldn't give us one sensible reason for this idea and so back-footed and agreed it wasn't 'necessarily appropriate'). They don't have any outreach arrangement, but share two learning mentors who take children from either school for days of intensive 1:1 support when they have been excluded. Sounds suspiciously like a cost-cutting exercise to me.

They will exclude him again if he behaves in this way, although 'always as a last resort'. He will have to stay at home and be set work if he we don't consent to the BIP. I don't know what to think about this. They were really sympathetic, but said that if he presents a serious danger to others, they have no other choice.

They say they are having intensive sessions with him on managing emotions alongside a whole catalogue of other strategies. Apparently they are working very hard at tailoring the curriculum to meet DS's needs as a 'G&T' child' - gave loads of examples. It all looks good on paper, but I just don't know if I buy it...

The school want a statement a.s.a.p and will support our request for assessment fully. They will make their own request if ours isn't successful. They want daily 1:1 support and supervision for DS built in to his school day (at least we agree on that). They are looking into increasing the Learning Mentor's hours per week with him, using money they got from a contingency fund, but this will run out within months. They say that without a statement DS is a danger to himself and other students and is being prevented from participating in mainstream ed by lack of support due to funds.

They want us to consider a flexible 'reduced timetable'. I don't know what I think about this. Head suggested that we be able to bring DS in later/collect earlier/do half days at times when we can predict he might struggle (end of week, especially Fridays; end of term; when he is tired etc). Sounds Ok in theory but a) not that easy to predict when he will have a bad day and b) is this just their way of not having to deal with him, oh and c) (!) - can they/we legally do this? Isn't he legally supposed to be in school five days a week? Head seemed sure we could do whatever works' and that she would consider 'any reasonable suggestions or requests' from us that we thought would help DS.

Came away feeling exhausted! I have fired off an email to all the external agencies involved in assessing DS, telling them that we are going for a statement and asking for any additional advice/therapy/intervention they can suggest that might help him in the meantime. I am going to contact Parent Partnership (with caution, as haven't heard great things) and IPSEA. I have drafted a letter requesting formal assessment and will get it sent by the end of the week.

What else should I be doing?

Any thoughts? Sorry for the long-winded and needy rant! MN is literally my only outlet for all of this at the moment.

They want us to consider a flexible 'reduced timetable'

That is just another form of exclusion.

If he's medically fit enough to attend school then he should be there for the full school week. The fact thay they can't cope with him is their problem - not yours.
If you agree to a reduced timetable you would be doing him a tremendous disservice - not only would you be denying him full-time ed but you would be making school's life easy and therefore taking the heat of them to come up with a permenent solution that woould meet your child's needs.

Would advise digging your heels in and insisting on full time ed and that school appply for a Statement immediately. And school should do this - not you. The LEA will get your letter and then ask school for their views and evidence. School should apply themselves which would speed up the process.

Definitely agree that full-time education is your son's right and you should insist on it.

One thing I would say, though, is that you should apply for the Statement (Statutory Assessment) yourself. It gives you control over the whole process and also gives you a legal right of appeal which isn't circumvented by someone 'forgetting' to copy you in on paperwork. IPSEA are really helpful if you get stuck and so are people on here and you care more about getting it done than anyone. In a school, sadly, it might not be on the top of someone's priority list and things might not be done so well. The short-term time-gain achieved by the school applying is, IME, lost because school take time to do this, that or the other. Plus schools often don't like to appeal decisions.

Stick to your guns and good luck.

PS some LAs do emergency short-term funding which schools can apply for in the interim while waiting for a Statement. Worth investigating this with the Head.

Some schools will put in fulltime 1:1 out of their own budget and then use this as evidence to support a statement is needed. If they can't cope they need to put more 1:1 in now. Don't let them tell you they can only put in x hours. If so ask them how big their SEN budget is and how they have spent it.

If you are going down the statementing road then I would ask yourself if this is the school you want to stick with - it might be an opportunity to look around at other options - public and private - and see if there are schools which have more to offer and a better attitude.

You can get in touch with the National Autistic Society (I know who don't have a diagnosis but are hinting at being possibly on the spectrum) helpline or IPSEA / ACE / SOSSEN helplines who can advise on exclusions.

Your local NAS branch may be able to advise which local schools have a positive track record.

You shouldn't have to take your child out. If they suggest this say you will need the local authority to arrange for him to be home tutored until proper provision can be made.

I'd also get in touch with ed psych and CAMHS and say that things have reached crisis point at school and can they move faster.

My own view is that if the school has a crap attitude a statement isn't going to change this and you might be better looking around. You don't have to name a school until you get a proposed statement so probably several months down the line.

You could also look into applied behaviour analysis (ABA) - lots of threads on here if you search. Private therapy but can get LA to fund under a statement if you are lucky. Its a behavioural approach mostly, but not exclusively, used for children with ASD. In my opinion very few non specialists do a good job with our children. Although there are some mainstream schools which will go the extra mile, they are rare.

I'm glad to hear the Head came to your meeting today and that you feel there were some outcomes (even if some of them were rather airy-fairy!).

Given that they say they are doing lots of G&T, 1:1 emotional support etc. I think now might be the time for a home-school contact book to be started. As you're not entirely sure quite what form the sessions/extension activities are taking this would provide the school with a wonderful opportunity to ensure that you have a clearer idea of the teaching your son is receiving that is tailored to his needs. If the school is reluctant then say you need it as a source of evidence for the statement application. If done properly it will also include mention of how he has responded to the positive behaviour management strategies they are using with him e.g. "X earned 10 ticks before playtime for following instructions".

The way in which their learning mentors are being used sounds interesting to say the least; usually they are used to help prevent exclusion, not once exclusion has happened (although there is obviously a role for them to play in order to prevent repeat exclusions). Intensive 1:1 after exclusion isn't the best way to modify behaviour and I doubt very much that it would be of any benefit to a 5-year-old (or any other age IMO!). 30 minutes a day every day would be much more useful than a whole day but only if his behaviour is so unmanageable as to require an exclusion! A BIP is meant to be a bonus for the schools involved, not limit them to behaviour support for pupils once they are past the point of no return so to speak.

Onto the topic of exclusions; they were right to say that this will be used as a last resort but I think they should have clarified what this means to them. When I've said this to parents I've been very specific e.g. "If X requires restraint by 2 adults for more than 20 minutes we will have to contact you with a view to excluding X for the remainder of the day/session". I would have also been clear about what I meant by restraint e.g. actual holding by two adults or one adult holding (some children do need this if they are unable to self-calm) and one blocking the door.

Flexi-schooling... others have already told you that a full-time school place is his entitlement. It is, assuming that he is of statutory school age. However, at the risk of flying in the face of what others have said, if you believe that a more flexible approach to school attendance may benefit your son then it is worth considering. All children of statutory school age must be in full-time education but this does not have to be in a school setting. If set up with the needs of an individual child at its heart, flexi-schooling can work. For example, a child with ASD who copes with the more formal, predictable literacy and numeracy sessions in the morning but is unable to cope with less predictable/formulaic afternoon sessions may benefit from flexi-schooling if s/he was taken out of school and the time was spent with an ABA tutor.

There aren't that many Heads who seem open to the notion of flexi-schooling, never mind suggest it themselves! I think you need to sit down and mull over what, if anything, your son might gain from a more flexible approach to school. You also need to consider whether or not it would be compatible with your work-life. You may decide that there is no benefit to him at all but may quite like the idea of taking him swimming/to the park/museum etc. as a way of meeting the requirements of the National Curriculum (this is a major difference between flexi and home schooling; home educators don't have to follow the curriculum). Have a think and if you're at all interested arrange to discuss with the Head how they imagine it would work. If your work enables you to do so you may choose to collect him early if you know he has slept badly the previous night or else on days when his regular teacher is out you may decide the day would be better spent with you but you'd need to know how the school would communicate the learning objectives etc. to you so he doesn't miss out.

Don't however be tempted to opt for flexi-schooling if you don't think there is any benefit for your son - there would be no point and, as others have already pointed out, that plays into the hands of those who may say that the school can meet his needs and thus refuse a statement when in fact they are only 'meeting his needs' because he's not there when he's tricky!

Did the SENCo say when the EdPsych is going to assess your son?

Just one more thought. All exclusions have to be reported by the head to the school's governing body, and it may be worth contacting the governors regarding the school's lax procedures -- especially their failure to issue official letter of exclusion and criteria for exclusion. There should be a SEN governor who is responsible for overseeing SEN matters in the school, and again it may be worth contacting him/her. The governing body might be rubbish and allow the head to walk all over them, but if they are any good they should hold the head to account for this mess.

Thanks for your replies, SE13Mummy and niminypiminy.

I have finally drafted the letter requesting statutory assessment and emailed it to the SENCo at DS's school so he can fill in a few blanks and suggest any changes, as he does this sort of thing all the time (incidentally, he says the school have had succes with getting statements for children who fit DS's profile, which I suppose is good...)

Spoke to Parent Partnership this morning and they said I needed to make the letter as detailed as possible, listing all interventions by external agencies so far and everything the school has already tried, and being really clear about what we think DS's needs are - so that's what I've done. It is 4 pages long plus an appendix (eek) and I could have gone on (!), but will save that for if/when they start collecting evidence.

SE13Mummy - thanks for your input, it is really appreciated. I have emailed a request to the SENCo to start up a home-school report book and have suggested monthly meetings to look at his IEP instead of 6-monthly. I've got a meeting with DS's class teacher tomorrow afternoon, so will mention it again then.

DS has already been seen twice by a Psyhcotherapist at CAMHS and is being seen again next month (I emailed him and he called straight back and said that he will support thre statement request). He hasn't been seen by an Ed Psych and that os one of the things I have stressed in the request for assessment. Despite the Consultant Paed saying that he fits most of the ICD criteria for Asperger's and the SALT saying he has significant problems around social communication and pragmatics, he still hasn't been assessed byan Ed Psych and thisis now urgently needed.

Thanks fo the advice re: flexi-schooling. DH and I are going to have a talk about it this weekend. Definitely food for thought.

niminypiminy - thanks for your advice, too. Will definitey bear this in mind. Have never really been clear about what the governors do!