Really worried about ds1's recent behaviour, need advice

[moosemama]

I don't really know why I am posting this, as I'm not sure anyone can help, but I am at my wits end with ds1.

He has recently been given a verbal diagnosis of of ASD by a paediatrician who said that he is very high functioning, but obviously in need of more help at school and with is social/communication issues.

The background to the current situation is that he has been consistently bullied by the same group of boys since Reception and is now in Year 3 (so just entered Juniors). He has struggled settling into Juniors and the bullies have seen this as a vulnerability and redoubled their efforts intensifying their behaviour in line with his increased inability to cope. Historically, I have always informed the school of any bullying incidents that have occurred and these have been dealt with on an incident by incident basis, but nothing has been done to stop the bullies repeat offending so-to-speak. So, last week I contacted the head (who is relatively new to the school) talked him through the whole history of the bullying and said I wanted something done about it. To his credit he dealt with it straight away and since then the bullies have, so far, kept away from ds. He has told me that he feels happier at school as he doesn't need to worry about the bullies now.

The problem we are now having is that suddenly, ds seems to have got it into his head that its ok for him to hurt other children. Basically, anyone that does or says anything to him that he doesn't like gets 'stabbed' (his words ) although apparently this is poking with a finger or a pencil. There is another boy who is new to his class this year and has lots of problems himself (he is in foster care after a very bad start in life and has two brothers on the spectrum himself). He acts out a lot, steals, breaks things and tends to wind the other children (including ds1) up. We had a bit of trouble with him at the beggining of the year and I had a chat with ds and explained that he had had a difficult life, but was really a good boy that just wanted to have some nice friends, he didn't mean to be so naughty/disruptive and it might be nice to cut him some slack and try to be kind to him, especially as people often have to make allowances when ds is struggling with things. This was fine, he took it on board and I was very proud of him when he tried really hard to be kind to this little boy (which I understand from both his foster mum and the teacher is not an easy task). Well now, the other boy's behaviour towards ds seems to have stepped up a notch. He has been scribbling on ds's work, teasing and generally winding him up (yesterday he stole some glue from the classroom and put it in ds's lunch box, he has also been caught stealing and eating the other childrens snacks and lunches).

Ds told me that he is so fed up of this little boy that he shouted at him that he wanted him to keep away and that he didn't ever want to see him again. Then he said, "so now if he ever comes anywhere near me Mummy, I stab him". I asked what he meant and he said if he comes near him he pokes him to make him go away. I asked ds1 to consider if perhaps the other little boy's behaviour is worse towards him because he is always poking him, but he was having none of it. We talked about why its wrong to poke/stab, how its wrong to hurt anyone ever, how best to handle the other boy's naughty behaviour by ignoring or telling the teacher etc and then at the end of the conversation, ds just said "but I'm still going to do it if he comes near me, its his own fault if he's naughty to me".

Then yesterday another girl in the class was teasing ds about him being clumsy and always dropping things (he's being assessed for dyspraxia as well) and he got out of his seat in the middle of a lesson, walked over to her and poked her with his pencil. To which his teacher (who is lovely, really tries hard with him and usually handles him really well) sent him out of the classroom. Then later in the day he was sent out of class by another teacher for having a meltdown when he couldn't partner his favourite friend.

It feels like a bit like the bullied has become the bully and his negative behaviour is getting worse. This is exacerbated by the fact that I just don't seem to be able to get through to him. He gets that bullying/hurting is bad and that bullies/people who hurt should get into trouble, but can't accept that what he is doing by hurting other children that upset him is also wrong. He seems to have one set of rules for himself and another for everyone else and will not be moved on this.

This morning we read a very basic book on bullying together. The book explains how some children might start hurting/bullying after they have been bullied or hurt but that this makes them as wrong as the bullies, but he just refused to agree that it bore any relation to what has been happening with him.

I am at a loss really, I simply don't know what else to say to him to help him understand that hurting other people is always wrong, no matter what and on top of that he is going to get into serious trouble if he continues doing it.

I know I am fortune telling and probably panicking, but I can't help worrying about his future if I can't get this message through to him. All I can see is that if this continues and escalates, he is going to be in constant trouble at school and could even end up getting suspended or excluded eventually.

He is usually pretty good with empathy. He can't see or read that someone is upset, but if you explain to him that they are upset and if necessary liken it to a time when he has felt upset/sad he is very caring and always wants to help. It just feels so different this time, he doesn't want to empathise, he is simply thinking that if someone wrongs him then they deserve whatever he chooses to do in retalliation.

I'm sorry this is so long. I just wanted to put his behaviour in context rather than make him out to be a nasty little boy, which he isn't - he's lovely.

I just wish we were further along the dx route as I don't feel there is anyone I can ask how best to handle these sort of situations and what works with my other dcs doesn't work with him.

Any advice would be really appreciated.

Gosh it is a very complex set of circumstances, I do feel for you. I have a very hf autistic SD who went through a little of this at school, and in addition she could not distinguish between "bullying" and people just being a bit "off" with her or choosing to play with someone else (of course bullying is often done very subtly, so it's hard to tell anyway). She actually did hurt another girl in primary school. But you'd not believe it now as she is incredibly "normal" if that's the right word.

It is very tricky as even "normal" kids have to learn defence mechanisms against bullies, but of course they know to do the threats etc in private, not in full view of the teacher. I was bullied at school, and in then end I also had to threaten a gang of horrible girls to get them off my back. Not saying it's right, but I had the same survival instinct your boy has. But of course I knew how to do it without getting myself into trouble, nor would I actually have gone through with any threats, but had to make it seem so. With HF autism, the subtleties of it all may not be there, making him so much more vulnerable to the bullies, and to getting himself into trouble when fighting back.

Not sure if this rambling is of any help, as it's all very tricky stuff.

It is very different with my DS, who is lower functioning autistic than your boy and very speech delayed, but I am afraid that the only thing that taught him not to be aggressive was to punish the behaviour. Talking didn't work with him, but showing him through some penalty did work. Perhaps, even with autism, it comes down to girls need to be told , boys need to be shown. Can you tell him that every time he does this kind of stabbing talk, he will lose an evening of computer time, or some such thing? So that he learns cause and effect? And that he must still report every single incident of himself being bullied to both you and the teacher, as you will deal with it not him?

But I'm just making suggestions, I don't really know, it is hard.

not susre if this will be helpful, try googling 'retained reflexes' and if any of this sounds relevant, find a sensory trained OT who may be able to help.

Thank you for your replies, sorry I disappeared - complicated school run night.

sickof, thank you so much for answering me. I had wound myself up into a bit of a state when I typed the post and then had to dash out without waiting for replies.

Your first paragraph resonates. Ds definitely can't tell the difference between someone gently teasing/joking, choosing to play with someone different one playtime or actually bullying. He feels all three things are equally heinous crimes against him.

We had a classic this week when he decided not to be friends with one of his oldest and best friends because she caused him to get hurt. Actually, all she did was think up a game that involved running around the playground. Ds, being dyspraxic and also not quite 'getting' the idea of the game then managed to trip over and hurt his arm. Just an accident, nobody's fault, but in his perception it was her fault because she started the game. Try as I might, I couldn't persuade him otherwise.

He 'gets' sarcasm and play teasing at home with us and his brother most of the time as its something we have worked hard with him on. Nowadays he tends to ask whether or not we are teasing/joking (or in his words 'being a joker') before he reacts negatively/explodes. Unfortunately, he doesn't seem able to generalise these skills to use when he is at school.

I think you make a good point about children with ASD not being able to 'subtley' deal with other children. For ds, if someone does something he perceives as bad/wrong towards him he will face them down and deal with it in a very upfront manner there and then, be it during a lesson, in assembly or out in the playground. Obviously by year 3 the other children know just how to press his buttons and can use his own reactive behaviour as a means of bullying, as they know he will get himself into trouble.

We have tried a lot of 'count to ten', take a deep breath, walk-away etc stuff with him, but he just doesn't seem to be able to do it.

I have recently told him at home to try saying 'I need to go somewhere and calm down for a few minutes' when he feels like he is going to have a meltdown. It works quite well at home, but again doesn't seem to help at school and doesn't help at all in situations when he is not going to meltdown but is going to come out with a horrible retort or speak to someone in a rude/inappropriate tone of voice.

I think I agree that the only course of action I have left to try for getting the message across is to impose consequences for the behaviour itself. I don't think I can say he will lose his computer game time for stabbing talk, as then knowing him, he will just carry on doing it, but not tell me about it and I won't find out what's going on at school until he gets into real trouble. I have said to him that I will tell his teachers that if he does any stabbing/poking or other aggressive behaviour to other children he should be sent to see the Head every time until he learns not to do it. That did seem to have some sort of effect as despite their Head being a lovely man its one of the worst things possible to be sent to see him for being naughty.

He is told to report every single bullying incident to the teachers for them to deal with. Unfortunately he reports every little gripe, cross-look, throwaway comment etc and a lot of them just nod vaguely, roll their eyes tend to ignore him, which is how the real bullying got sidelined.

Honestly, my heart goes out to him as he comes across as so spiteful or rude etc but I know that he's really just bewildered and confused.

Improving slowly, I have read a bit about retained reflexes on David Mulhall's site and a lot of it does seem relevant to ds.

He was IUGR (although that resolved before birth and he was a normal weight at birth) I suffer from generalised anxiety and had some unexplained blood pressure spikes during the third trimester necessitating bed rest. He had a long (36hr) difficult back to back labour followed by a ventouse delivery. He never crawled at all, he didn't even cruise really, just stood up one day and walked across the room using his push along walker for support. He was noted as having poor fine motor skills in pre-school and still has some difficulties there.

Its interesting stuff and I did think it might be worth investigating an integration programme for him, as it seems fairly benign and nothing that would stress or upset him, but there is no way we can afford it for the forseeable future.

I am with improvingslowly-reflex inhibition is working well for my DS (5 with dyspraxia). Quite amazing progress in many areas and now we are tackling retained moro reflex FAR better understanding of emotion/appropriate behaviour...we did with INPP practitioner but fully understand re the cost...

That's encouraging oddgirl. Particularly the understanding of emotion and appropriate behaviours. I have just googled for more info on the Moro reflex and ds has all but two out of a list of 23 symptoms/signs for retention of this reflex!

Problem is, I haven't seen any practitioners listed around the West Midlands. They all seem to be down south and charge a fortune.

all i can say is that finding private OT who advised on reflexes and then doing 'therapeutic listening' CDs has been very helpful for us.

have a look on the OT website and look for sensory trained/sensory integration OTs in your area and find out how much it would cost.