So upset. At a loss really

[BunnyRabbit]

Sorry, long one....Not posted for awhile but as usual when things get tough, I fall back on MN.

DS1 is 6 and ASD DX. Only 'mild' mostly social communication and some physical issues. Last few weeks have not been good. More andm ore meltdowns and displays of temper. Some I think we'd get with an NT child, but it's all magnified of course.

This morning things went stratospheric. Threw his glasses again (been doing this lots lately). He has been warned that they will be confiscated if he did this again (they have nice pattern and spare pair have none) so DH (I was already in transit) got spare pair out and it all went down hill from there really. Spoke to DH 3 times on the train. Just couldn't calm him down. Needed to get out and get DS2 to nursery and DS1 to breakfast club but nothing he did would make him get his shoes or coat on. Said he wanted to stay at home by himself and not go to school. He shouted, cried, kicked and pinched (he has never been violent like this before). I told DH that he should tell DS1 that he could have his glasses as soon as he got in his class if he went to breakfast club now! and that daddy would put his shoes and coat on if he did not do it himself. All horrible for DH who was in tears when I spoke to him. Eventually got him to breakfast club.

At a loss really. Should we just give in and let him throw his glasses? This is against everything I believe, DS1 is more than capable of understanding the importance of not breaking his glasses and they say you should pick your battles. This is one of mine. I do not allow violence or the destruction of property.

I've been a wreck all morning. Wracked with guilt that I was not there, worried that we've caused this outburst by being firm and sticking to our guns. Am I making him the way he is. Is this all my fault??

Please help....
BR

Try not to be so hard on yourself. It is definitely not all your fault. my ds doesn't have ASD but does have sensory issues and a strong school aversion at the moment. It is hard to know where to draw the line as I am never sure if it is bad behaviour or a sensory problem. Had lots of trouble at school last week.

I don't know what is best and struggle on a daily basis to keep a blance between allowing for his Sn problems and still alying the boundaries so that he is a decent person and not in trouble all the time. I think it is just one small step. Taking the heat out of the situation might help. He may throw them because he knows it is what will get to you. Perhaps if you remain unphased he might find a different way of venting that is more tolerable to you.

take care

Thanks for your response. Makes me feel better knowing it's not just me. I of course know in my head that we're not the only ones. But my heart is not listening and it's so nice to hear it from someone else.

I wish we had a little flag that came up saying "this is behaviour you would expect form an NT child" or " this is caused by DS1's SN" Wouldn't that make things easier!!!

He is in school and has told the teacher all about it so I know he understands. it's sooo frustrating isn't it? How do you keep sane?

BunnyRabbit - hello - another one here with similar issues! And yes, I'd love a little flag!

I have a 5 year old DS with ASD DX, sounds similar to yours in that he is only mildly affected (social communication, problems with concentration/auditory processing and some fine motor stuff) and I seem to spend my life obsessing over whether things are due to the ASD, or due to his 'being 5', IYKWIM.

I am absolutely convinced that a lot of my DS's strops (like yours, he isn't generally physically agressive, can just be a bit immature at times) are actually as much to do with his age as his SN. But as you say it gets magnified when a child struggles to communicate socially anyway.

It will be nothing you've done wrong. All he is doing is kicking against a perfectly fair rule that you have in place. Bear in mind too that at 5/6 boys go through those testosterone surges which can trigger this kind of behaviour anyway and I've seen NT children behave similarly. Do you think some of the recent behaviour might have been exacerbated by the whole disruption of Christmas, breaks from school because of snow and so on? Is there anything else that might be triggering the meltdowns? We've been attributing some of DS1's recent stroppiness to the arrival of DS2, for example - and I'm sure we're probably right to an extent, but equally I'm sure some of it would have happened regardless!

I think you are completely right to stick to your guns re the glasses BTW and I would have done exactly the same!

Getting all choked up again just reading your replies. Thank you thank you thank you.

I get so worried that we are doingthe wrong thing.

Starlight, that is exaclty how I feel. He has to learn what is acceptable behaviour in society. Whether it comes naturally or not. We have to teach him in the same way as other children have help with reading and maths.

He is has advanced speech, language and comprehension so he does understand. Someone bought us a Haines manual on babies (very cool present) when he was born but it only goes up to 1 year. Where are the others???

amberflower, have been trying to work out what it is but I think it's just cyclical. As you say, every now and again he just pushes the boundarie sto see what happens. Unfortunatley tohe reaction is always going to be disproportionate. Instead of an "aww but I don't want to" we get crying, stroppy, sulky, temper fits that just make you want to scream!!

DS1's main problem is that the world does not revolve around him and there are times when he has to do things he doesn't want to. Oh yes and the fact there are consequencies to his actions!

I suppose I know how he feels. I certainly did when my bus and my train were late and I'd spoken to DH 3 times and DS1 once before I even got to my desk. I wanted to throw my work bag on the track and run in to the distance screaming .

Thanks again for your support which is so appreciated.

BR

Oh and I had tears rolling down my face on the train and when i walked in the office. How very attractive!

Ds (ASD/LD) behaviour got more wobbly prone and emotional around 5 - 6 for a while and I had days of thinking my parenting just was not succeeding too. Someone (can't remember which professional) told me boys get a hormone surge around 5 that makes them a little more 'redmist prone' for a while. Dressing - especially shoes - was always a trigger point - as is trying to hurry. Monday mornings ( with everyone rushing) used to be awful here too - till I stopped working Mondays - not a solution possible for everyone!
Hope tomorrow is a better day.

Hi

DS has had problems like this in the morning and I found looking at the reason for the behaviour helped.

I'm just thinking out loud here but, for example, DS is really sensitive to being rushed in the morning and is often anxious after the routine of the weekend. Home is a safe place and one they can generally control compared to the unpredictability of school. You might not see it, but they may get anxious.

So, I think you are right to make it clear that throwing glasses is unacceptable but perhaps talk to him about why this happened. NT or ASD, there is usually a reason for behaviour with all children (the NAS use the 'iceberg' idea) and it needn't be too deep and meaningful. But the trouble with social communication difficulties is that the reason is not always clear.

I try and have a strict routine in the morning which is written on a white board and which we stick to and write down even when DS seems fine.

I then tell myself in the mornings that it doesn't matter if anyone is late. We will go as quickly as we can without stressing.

I'm not saying for one minute that this is what happened with your DS, just that it could be something worth bearing in mind.

Sorry, re-reading my post, I sound a bit pompous, don't mean to but I know I battled with a hysterical son in the mornings for months before I figured out a system to reinstate calm!!

I know how you feel. . This morning, DD (almost 12yo) had her BIGGEST. MELTDOWN. EVER. It took me AND my DP to restrain her, she has kicked holes in two doors this morning and put her fist through the plasterboard. Because she was dawdling with breakfast (hence messing up her OWN routine!) she then got violent because she had to rush to get ready....I wouldn't have mimded QUITE AS much, but she only has a 5 min walk to school, I have to take DS's on the bus in the other direction, and they were late, which meant DS1 (NT) had to stay in at break because he missed registration. (DS2 didn't have to as he is in the infants, DS1 is juniors,Y3) So he got home, and was angry with her for making him late (he had had 100% on time this year, now he won't get an award at the end of the year ) so he spent the evening 'copying' everything she said as he knows it pisses her off sends her into meltdown. And as DP was on a late shift, I had to deal with the ensuing carnage alone. AAAAARRRRGGGHHHH!!!

Loudlass..... my tropuble melt in to insignficance compared to yours! I think infanticide may be legal in such cases!!

Mags, you're not the first person to mention the hormone thing and I think you may have a point as everything is fighting and shooting games at the moment. I suppose will know within the next few months (if he lives that long! ).

Debs, not at all. I know what you're trying to say and appreciate the thought. It all kicked off because DH asked him to put his shoes on for the 4th time and DS1 said 'but I haven't finished/just have to etc. etc. excuse excuse etc. '. DH said 'no you need to put them on now' and DS1 got the hump and threw his glasses. At that point they were all ready to go (stuff in car, babies coat on etc.)and had plenty of time. They do have a routine in the morning and DS1 knows what the score is.

Unfortunately, as we both work, it does actually matter if we are late. Had enough sodding around with the trains etc. recently so need to be seen to be getting in on time really.

On another point, it seems that DS1 can easily break routine when it suits him (more telly/food/Wii/play centre anyone??). I sometimes wonder if I'm just being taken for a ride you know?? Do any of you ever get that feeling??

BR

BR I work too actually and I have a three year old in tow who I have to car journey to drop off before I can work. So it actually matters to me if my schedule is put back. But I'd rather be a few minutes late in the scheme of things than have a screaming child.

That change has worked for me. We are actually not often late but if we are, so what?

Of course, it's up to each parent to decide what is part of usual child hood manipulation and what needs a bit more thought. You know your child best. I just know my son needs time to finish what he's doing and it helps to count that time down, even if it seems a trivial thing (e.g. getting the right hat for a lego star wars man).

You know best though. You're child might be very different and be aware of times etc

IInterestingly, on the routines, I think the point of them is to exert control over chaos so I'm not surprised if a child breaks a routine for something s/he wants. That still leaves them in control.

Of course, you don't have to go with everything they want, you don't have to let them manipulate anything. But sometimes they control things, because they are controlled by things.

Debs, sounds like that really works for you. Probably a lot less stressfull (you must have a very understanding manager )

In the end it does come down to control and boundaries and who is in charge. We all have to adhere to the rules of society, wether that means getting to school on time, or making it to the library before it shuts. DS1 is aware of these things, and more than capable of understanding when it suits him (he can certainly rush when missing the library is at stake), and has his 5, 2 and 1 minute warnings. I don't think this has anything to do with routine, timing or being rushed. It's back to the old question of who's in charge. DS1 can kid himself he is as much as he likes, but in his case he needs to learn that when we (or Teacher/TAs) ask him to do something, then it isn't when he decides he wants to, it's when we decide. I do know he can find this difficult, after all the world revolves around him doesn't it, so we give him lee way (yes quickly grab whatever doodad your life will end without)but in the same way that he can't run around tescos playing with his willy (why do they always play with themselves at every oppotunity?) he can't do what he wants, when he wants all the time.

I have no problem with enforcing this and he can regale against it as much as he likes (as would any other child) my issue is with him throwing his glasses, or anything else really.

I also don't see why DS2 should suffer because of DS1 (Loulasses DS1 for instance had every right to be angry) DS2 was in the car and very upset by the time DS1 got in the car. I think this upset me more than anything, that we'd inadvertantly upset DS2 by upsetting DS1... ahhh here I go getting all emotional again.

I suppose we all have our own ideas of how to handle our DCs and they are all so different, horses for courses I suppose.

Anyway, enough drivel from my mangled mind. Thank you all for your support and suggestions. Much appreciated.

BR

BR, you are answering your own question. You can feel it in your heart that what you did was right. Sometimes, you just need to get it out there.

You obviously feel strongly that you did the right thing, and that, frankly, is all that matters. We're all entitled to our views but the most important thing is for YOU to do what suits YOUR family. Only YOU know YOUR child. All ASD children are very different and autism is not always an excuse for bad behaviour.

I'm sorry if you feel like I'm undermining what you say. I'm not trying to. It is a very hard balancing act and I am always conscious that DS2 sees a level of upset in the morning that is not fair on him, so I do understand.

I'm also sorry if your employers are not understanding. You could do without that additional stress but you do have rights under discrimination law if you are the carer of a child with a disability so don't let anyone strong arm you.

Does your employer know that you are a carer for a disabled child? As Debs says, there is actually quite a lot of protective legislation about to prevent these issues. DP had to invoke them yesterday as he was 1/2 hour late for work, due to trying to stop DD destroying the house (which I can no longer manage alone when she has a major meltdown as she is almost as tall as me, whereas he is 6ft2!). Before he had it put in writing, his employers kept putting him on verbal warnings & disciplinaries, even though he had verbally told them. Get it put in writing, then you have a lot more protection.

I find it's not so much 'dealing with the meltdowns' that upset me, it's the impact the meltdowns have on DS1 that upsets me, as it's not his fault these things happen. DD wasn't much better this morning, but I have at least got the reason why now, and am (trying to!) liase(sp) with the school to rectify the problem. I often find DD's meltdowns are more frequent if there is a problem at school (however trivial the 'problem is or isn't to me, it's a major event for her), and she struggles to get her feelings across, it can take weeks to discover what the problem is. The joys of asd, causing problems that the child is unable to explain, DD has 'emotions' that don't make sense to her, and I have to try to 'wade through' them...

Debs,
I don't feel you're undermining me at all! In fact quite the opposite. You were spot on with your comment about control and

And yet again you're spot on concerning bad behaviour. I think that's what worries me too, that we should use his ASD as an excuse for bad behaviour. And then the reverse, that we are so keen that he should not behave badly, that we lose sight of his difficulties and forget that the smallest thing can seem so important to him.

And yet last night he took it all on the chin, losing his right to choose telly didn't upset him, he took it all in his stride. I will never ever get used to the unpredictability of it all.

Your DS2 is older than mine if I remember correctly, have you noticed any differences in how they behave? We have really noticed that DS2 behaves very differently to how DS1 was at this age.

Do you have a DX for DS1?

BR

PS Our bosses are both understanding TBH but we've had so much disruption on our trains in both December (for so many reasons I lost count) and in Jan 'cos of the snow, we're both very conscious of taking advantage.

loudlass... oh yes yes yes. We have exactly the same problem. It takes time to root out the real problem and then all the other things melt away. I think Debs hit the nail on the head with control which is nearly always DS1's issue. Even if he gets what he wants, if he didn't decide then he can sulk for ages.

My immediate boss does know but that's as far as it goes.

What are the rules/legislation? Do they have to pay you if you're late? What about days off and hospital/pead/school visits?

BR

I'll have to wait until DP gets home to clarify all of it, I've not worked for 2.5years, so do not have current up-to-date knowledge of the legislation like he does. Will post later, but he doesn't finish until 8pm tonight, so I won't be able to ask him till around 9pm. Will let you know though.

Doubt I'll be on again till tomorrow anyway so that would be great.

Since the new legisation for carers I have changed my working hours (obviously get less pay) and my employer is more flexible. If I am late (the sn bus is often late which holds me up - I miss my train) I make up the time - ie no lunch or if dh is home - work late to make up. I swop or use holiday to make ds medical appointments.

"I think that's what worries me too, that we should use his ASD as an excuse for bad behaviour. And then the reverse, that we are so keen that he should not behave badly, that we lose sight of his difficulties and forget that the smallest thing can seem so important to him."

I think we are all in the same boat there. It is so hard with children at the high functioning end as they are often intelligent enough to look like they should know better so their behaviour is exasperating. This is particularly the case when it is repeated despite punishments or reprimands. They never seem to learn. Is that because of ASD? It could be. But does that mean you never punish? Very hard

BR, DS1 is waiting official dx but we saw head of ASD team last week who told us she completely agreed with our parental dx of AS. She is going to come into school to observe after half term.

If I remember, our boys were quite similar in age. What sort of support does your DS get in school? Have you seen ed psych? I'm toying with going down that road.

DS2 has just turned 4 and is so much more engaged with us, and noisier(!)than DS1. He doesn't miss a trick and wants attention all the time whereas DS1 was quieter and happy to play on his own.

Magso, I had though of cutting down my hours, but I earn more than DH so it's not really feasible at the moment. I do tend to swap with DH (He drops off and I pick up normally) when I can but when they plonk an appointment smack bang in the middle of the day it's a real PITA.

Debs, DS1 was 6 in September and DS2 is 21m. Absolutely agree re the high functioning. He's such a clever little so and so. Sometimes it's obvious when he's trying to manipulate us : " if you don't let me do abc then I'm going to xyz " and he now knows what ultimatum means and what happens if he uses one. Other times, I'm not sure he even knows himself that he's behaving in certain way to try and evoke a particular outcome/reaction.

Last night was also stressfull. Tried to bring swords and light sabres up to bed time which is a big no no as it just gets them both excited (yes DS2 knows how to duel and his first two word sentence was 'en gaurd'). Kept calm, explained for the Nth time why he couldn't, and just told him if he didn't come up without them by the time I counted to 3 I would have to come and get him. Much sulking ensued but it worked.

Never seen an Ed Psych, only Paed, SLT and OT. He has an IEP at school. They do gym trail (20mins of excercies with 6 others) 3 times a week and finger gym once a week and he is supposed to share 1 to 1 with a TA on the other day (no Social stories, playing games and sharing in a small group etc) but I don't think that's happening at the mo. He has special cutlery the same as home which the school ordered and look after for him. His teacher is very clued is very good at assessing his mood and handling him. She taught a severely autistic child last year so she's a believer IYSKWIM.

He also does French club and gymnastics and seems to be coping well and really enjoying it. He goes to Stage coach on a Saturday, but that's a saga by itself.

DS2 is far more inquisitive than DS1 was and he also engages with us more, just like your DS2. My only worry at the moment is he seems to be a bit OCD! Likes door and drawers shut, has to put things back where they go and turns lights off when we leave a room... actually this could all be my fault!!

Is your DS dyspaxic/hypermobile as well or am I getting confused?

BR