DS aged 2.5 - what do you think?

[WeThreeNinks]

I have been haunting these boards for a few months wondering if my "babyish" DS as I have thought of him for the last year may have some other needs.

I am going to sound crass and inept and for that I apologise.

My HV is coming to see him at home because he wouldn't conform at pre-school but I have things I want to discuss.

This is going to be a HUGE ask, a big one, but I have kept a notepad thing regarding DS over the last few weeks. Here it is:

Speech delay - words not communicating / asking, nouns like "digger" associations with sound even out of sight. "Monkey" said Daddy so Jamie sang song. "Winkle" sang Twinkle star! "Wait" for BF.

Doesn't say Mummy, says Dadad and "bye". Doesn't say Mummy.

No index finger pointing, won't follow a point but will "count" figurines and point to numbers on a clock or in a book.

Musical, pitch and rhythm advanced, , (I'm a musician he really is advanced) sings well, loves nice calm songs BUT sensitivity to discords, loud noise, loud voices and overstimulation. He doesn't play if there are all the toys out.

Imaginative play very good but lines things up, cars, toy animals, figurines, places them just so.

Engages in games with family good eye contact, laughs, giggles.

Does jigsaws well and concentrates but overreacts with frustration when things don't work.

Good at building towers, investigating things. Likes to collect similar things eg big stones, pigs.

Co-ordination and gross-motor very good, spinning in circles looking out of control but is very much aware of things in the room, furniture and toys and anticipates them rather than reacts.

Has sensory issues with food, hates certain textures, everything just so. For example he won't eat toast unless it is perfectly done and cut.

Hates change in specific routines - can't go past cafe now without going in or pet shop without a meltdown.

Sleepless. Very frequent nightwakings, early starts, late naps, all over the place. Five hours max despite strong routines from the start. Has only just started to fall asleep easily.

Not very physical, won't hug or kiss just because as we do to him, has just started holding hands. Not cuddly.

No two-word phrases by two.

Only just responding to name. Sometimes won't.

Hi Wethree - Probably a good idea to get HV to refer you to Paed which deep down you probably already know - can't really give any other advice

He WeThreeNinks, welcome to the board

I sat and read your long thread on B&D last night funnily enough.

I have got to move my bum to get the kids to school but will be back later I promise!!

There are lots of lovely, friendly, knowledgeable and experienced people here so you will get lots of replies soon I am sure.

Speak soon

I've had this uneven pattern of development too with my sons - singing way before they could talk, absurdly musical, very late pointing, etc.

They definitely have needed extra help and I've done most of the work aided by this board, the Hanen books, DS2's nursery and to a small extent only I'm afraid by professionals.

I'm very impressed that you are so on top of this at 2.5. You don't sound crass and inept at all. You sound very intelligent and like someone who has all the tools to do the job ahead .

More specific advice would have to be tailored according to what kind of person you are - what galvanises you, what makes you stumble.......... but always remember you are the world's leading expert on this lovely musical little boy.

Thanks for the replies, you are lovely

DD was a little person speaking in ten-word sentences at 18 months and could be cajoled and reasoned with by two but she was exceptional. So because of that I've made allowances for DS for a long time.

But reading these threads and the nursery thing has made me think again.

A mixed pattern of development is certainly not unusual. The only thing you maybe should get a specific opinion on is the speech as it does seem delayed. Has anyone ever advised you or assessed his receptive/expressive speech?

I would agree with cyber-the speech delay is something you could seek an opinion on.

Lots of boys at that age line things up and spin round to make themselves dizzy. He sounds like a lovely wee boy. When are you seeing the HV? Dont be fobbed off like we were when DS was 2.5 with a "wait and see" approach.

Please keep posting on here with any questions, moans, advice etc. You sound like a lovely mum and not remotely inept.

Spinning can also be a sensory thing though. Some children jsut seek the dizzy feeling.

I had a similar thing with my oldest two. dd was very quick developing for the first couple of years, could hold conversations very early, etc, so I kept getting told not to compare even though I had a feeling something was not right from very early on.

I'd go with your instincts and ask for a referral to a developmental paed. I think there are def quite a few sensory issues in what you have listed, and it is possible to do a senosry profile and get referrals to help with that.

Great advice, thank you. I'm seeing the HV on Monday, (frantically washing curtains ) and will use the phrases you have provided me with such as sensory issues and mixed pattern of development. Very helpful because I don't want to be classified as the sort of parent who has just done a quick google and has leapt to conclusions.

I must say that this board is a real education. I had heard the term, "Autism Spectrum" before and knew that it was opposed to a continuum but didn't have any real understanding of it. Now I am beginning to. I mentioned it to my mum the other day and she was horrified at the very thought. Isn't it a shame?

He sounds like a gorgeous little boy.

I think that I would be asking for a referral just to make sure that everything is okay. If you later decide that he doesn't need it then the appointment can always be cancelled.

Welcome to the SN board.

WeThree,

OK, it sounds like you want to take it further re the language. The following statements should get the HV's attention (if of course they are true!)

• he doesn't bring me things to show me
• he can't follow a point and doesn't seem to understand what pointing is for
• sometimes he doesn't seem to understand what I say to him especially if it is out of context
• he doesn't seem to be able to work out how to show me what he wants

The things that ought to get you to a paed. faster are problems understanding, showing and being shown.

The other things may be just as important but there is a huge subset of 2-year-olds with those issues, (obsessions, fussiness, not talking) so if you focus on those, the HV is more likely to go down a blind alley, suspect you of overgoogling etc.

When we referred DS2 to the SALTS (at a drop-in centre) the first SALT rang a more senior SALT and said "this is DS2, there is a question mark over his understanding". The actual speaking bit tends to take care of itself once they understand and have conquered their articulation problems (if any) and have figured out showing/telling.

Re you mum: if you get to the bottom of this then you may be able to skate round the "autism" word by saying instead "We've found out that he's got a problem with the way he processes the sounds he hears". In that way, mum may be ready to get down to work helping him rather than go through years of arguing the ASD points with you (as sadly some parents on this forum seem to do). I know it's not how it should be but if it gets her on board........

linglette that post was amazingly helpful, thank you. So true about the "over-googling" that's exactly what I was trying to avoid.

I am usually Ninks and DS is Jamie as is evident from my notes. Not sure if I should ask for that to be deleted, perhaps not as this is relatively private and I like vibe here. I only hope that as this progresses I can be useful to somebody else

Oh and thank you all for the welcome

You could be me! I had a very bright DS1, so I never really knew what to expect from DS2 and tried not to compare the two, and maybe was unconcerned that DS2 had no real language at age 2. It wasnt until it was all pointed out to me that it all slotted into place.

My DS2 is nearly 3 and still has very little understanding, cant point or use social language and cant follow basic commands. We are however going through Echolalia (verbal repeating), but its very random.

As for your Mum, I know how you feel. My Dad is just the same, and I have got to the point where we just dont discuss it. He tries to explain away all DS2's problems, or says things like 'Why are you sending him to playgroup, why isnt he going to a Special School?' in a sneery kind of way (My dad is lovely BTW, just has some strange views). I know what DS's problems are and as I have to deal with it all day every day it doesnt matter what other people think.

Good luck with the HV on Monday

Thank you MarioandLuigi!

Forgot to say I saw your other thread about the nursery problems - I'm sorry you had such a bad experience. The priority should have been to get help into the nursery not to suggest that he leaves for a while! Not all nurseries are like that so don't lose hope. The first nursery we were at was great and really helped to bring DS! on.

Hello cyberseraphim, I did wonder about that as the manager told me that the HV comes in to do observations. I wonder why she couldn't see him there?

The manager is very opposed to the idea of starting children at 2.0 though, maybe it was easier to just rule out immaturity first by giving him a break from it.

It still annoys me that they weren't prepared to meet his individual needs by giving him 1:1 at story time though, it's only about 15 minutes.

It could be that if the nursery is more geared to older children ? Maybe the HV will be able to suggest a nursery that can offer more support ?

Hiya. Looked you up and found you here. You sound convinced yourself and tbh if you highly suspect and have been living with these thoughts for a while, you are probably spot on.

'I mentioned it to my mum the other day and she was horrified at the very thought. Isn't it a shame?'

Yes, of course, but I don't think it is unusual at all. It isn't easy for parents, but often they at least get absorbed by whatever plan of action they are puting in place. Grandparents can feel quite helpless.

That's very true FuckingNinkyNonk I hadn't thought of that.

Well the HV visit was very positive. DS displayed the full range of his behaviours except a full-blown out-of-control meltdown. Had little ones instead but she could see that they were frequent.

He also played imaginatively and with me, sung, did a jigsaw and played with me making eye-contact and even deigned to look at the HV once or twice.

She has suggested that we leave the sleep and food issues for now, and to not worry about his behaviour at nursery too as she thinks he'll be fine once he's three.

We will focus on the speech and the frustration. I'n taking him to a drop-in SAL place where he can be observed and then someone may come after Christmas to work through play with him here.

We'll see how it develops and if there are any long-term needs that he has, well they'll show up. The important thing is that the ball is rolling

That sounds positive. One word of warning however. You can get lost in the whole 'wait and see' business and if more action needs taking, the bigger the action, the longer the waiting list iyswim. I would expect to have a definitive answer within a month of 'being observed'. Don't accept 'wait and see' under any circumstances. If they are not 100% sure what they are dealing with by the end of Jan insist on a Paed referral.

Thanks for your reply FNN. Re-reading my post it does have a ring of being a bit fobbed-off possibly.

As it happens, we went to the SALT drop-in and had a long chat. She suggested a paed referral to assess and when I rang the HV she sounded a bit put-out, as if we had gone over her head so perhaps the SALT had greater concerns?

She really put me at ease about the pre-school thing and said it was disgraceful DS being asked to leave rather than given the 1:1 he needed.

HV offered to help with the eating and sleep issues when we are ready though

WeThreeNinks Your GP can refer too if the HV isn't helping.

TBH, if you feel you are ready for it, there would be no harm in having the referal simultaneously. It'll take at least 6 weeks for your appointment to come through anyway.

Thanks again, FNN, but my knowledge of DS may all be by the by according to the SALT.

Apparently while I was watching him play with the farm animals, wibbling them about up ladders and in and out of doors she saw no evidence of imaginative play.

I may start a new thread about this because I'm confused about the definition.

Ninks

Don't get hung up on the imaginative play. The bottom line is your ds is struggling. Don't hold up a diagnosis and therefore help for the sake of a technicality.

Let them diagnose him worse than you think. The thing about asd is that there is no standardised way of assessing, diagnosing and in any case children change at an incredible rate when they are this age.

The best you can do is get something that is meaningful and helpful. Services rarely differentiate between most developmental SN anyway so whilst it is frustrating for you as a parent not to have accurate information/diagnosis about your ds, you will probably find soon enough that this is relatively unimportant wrt help, so the best you can do is get a label as quickly as possible and quite frankly any label will do.

hth

That's very good advice FNN, I will be taking it

I found out today that Paed referral is going to be six weeks and at least twelve for SALT so best not to hold up the process!