anyone with non verbal asd child?

[jilly78]

my son aged 4 has severe autism. is completely non verbal. he attends special needs nursery which is great. they're trying to teach him pecs. which he is getting the hang of them well. they're also trying to teach him makaton but he has no interst in learning this and can be quite difficult. how do you communicate with you lo? any tips or advice would be greatly apprechiated. its so frustrating for both of us and usually ends with lots of tantrums if i dont know what he wants.

many thanks

My DS is verbal (but limited to needs and own interests). I would have thought that sticking to PECS would make more sense unless there was a clear indication that Makaton was working for him but it seems that there is not.

my sis ds ( 21 now) has severe autism and non verbal, PECS worked best, but even this is limited, she learnt his signs over the years, but sadly this has mainly been through head banging.

I think with makaton the child needs reasonable imitiation skills otherwise its a frustrating process for all.
If you don't feel he is getting it I would personaly invest my time in concentrating on PECS.
Fortunatly my ds is verbal now but with very poor imitation he struggled to pick up makaton.

I'm sure someone with more knowledge than me will be along shortly.

Dd2 (3.9) was non-verbal until 4 months ago, she used PECS and still does when she needs it.

Dd2 wasn't bothered about signing until after she started to speak and now she can sign a few words (biscuit, please, bread).

I think if it wasn't for the PECS and the Music therapy she would still be non-verbal. Dd2 sang before she really talked, she was lucky that she got 1:1 music therapy sessions with a great therapist at her nursery.

We use both PECs and Makaton with my DS who is now 14. We started with PECs when he was 2.5 yrs old and about a year later (after he had learnt to copy with ABA) introduced Makaton. ABA or not, I wouldn't introduce both at once. In the past, in the "autism community" there have been vehement supporters of either, not both. But I feel that using both is great, neither is "best" and both have their advantages and disadvantages, e.g. DS can differentiate between "toast" and "bread" in PECs (and similar) which he can't do in Makaton BUT he can ask me for toilet quickly when we are out and about using a Makaton sign and he can ask me for lots of things easily when I am driving on my own with him without having to manage pictures. I was told categorically by the Head EP here that you "never use both", ha ha, I just agreed politely. Parents being "for" or "against" either system are only denying their DC a form of communication, I always think that we (NTs) all communicate in lots of different ways, not just one, so why not our DCs with ASD/LDs? I assume you are using reinforcement systematically with PECs, do the same with Makaton too and hand over hand, modelling etc, all the same techniques really. Don't give up on Makaton if he takes to PECs but maybe leave it until a bit later if poss.

DS, ASD and Downs, estimated severe LD, difficulties verbalising, has limited vision to the extent we cant use pecs or makaton. He has at times become immensely frustrated. When he was off over the summer i made it my goal to teach him to point, using the prompt "Finger- point!" it worked remarkably well in making communication easier and helping him get his meaning across in school has made him much happier to go in.

I used hand over hand when he'd let me and showed him how i pointed to objects before i got them. He very quickly worked out that pointing got him what he wanted as he was getting lots of rewards in shops (this motivational activity stopped once he had learnt it, now I just agree oh yes, you like that!)

He now uses pointing around the house and school- points at cupboard where cup is kept when thirsty etc. Points at objects that are in the wrong place etc. Seems to help him feel in control of his environment. Made a huge difference to his confidence and happiness. It sounds like your DS will have other ways to communicate, but we have found it to be a lifesaver in the meantime.

DS2 was non-verbal until we introduced PECS at 4 - he then began to use single words for the things he wanted - first with the picture and then without. He stopped using PECS once he could ask for everything that was in his book. At the same time we were using a few signs and have increased this as time has gone on - he uses them as prompts for verbalising rather than actually doing the sign himself - so if he's struggling for a word and we sign, it'll jog his memory.

The best thing was our ABA/VB programme, which focused on increasing his ability to request. At 7, he is now able to ask for most things he wants using single words, though his speech is still unclear and he often uses the wrong word for things. He has just started putting words together, and again we are using signing to prompt this. So a mixture of methods worked for us.

I agree with everything Davros says and i am a specialist SALT in this filed with MSc in ABA, in depth understanding of PECS and Makaton.

It doesn't have to be one or the other.

Re this Davros
'I was told categorically by the Head EP here that you "never use both"'

What absolute tripe. This sort of misinformation (based on bugger all evidence-I would have asked her to show me her evidence) makes me soooo angry and shuts so many doors.

You should have seen the sign I did to her behind her back!

I think both is great if it can be done as the more communication the better obviously but although I would not say parents are infallible there should be some consultation with the parents on which approach(es) are most likely to work in the home. DS1 has very little response to signs and still does not wave though he enjoys saying 'Bye bye'. Makaton would never work with him and it would be mad to introduce it though I am sure that would be no barrier to some! Even although his verbal language is basic, I personally think it works best for him - though we do now use visual prompts in the hopes of expanding it. I always thought that PECS/Makaton were to augment verbal communication if it exists not to replace it but I don't think this always comes across very clearly when a professional is waffling on about their preferred system.

As with BUSYBEINGMUM, it took 18mths of signing before i got anything at all back in makaton (in fact for the first approx 8mths it looked like he hadnt even noticed that we were signing) It was after another couple of months later till i got something that was useful. He would 'comment' rather than request, he could name a dog, or duck, but hadnt a clue he could use it to get something he wanted.

He is still non-verbal at 3.6y, but does well with his signing, it certainly does get his needs across to us. Occassionally we get a couple of 2-word signing.

PECS was tried, but we found that the pics were just as much prized as the real objects and he got very distressed at having to hand them over. so it was abandoned. It simply didnt work for him at all.

Good luck, its not a quick fix, but hopefully it will work eventually.

DS2s language came on using PECs consistently.
He was non verbal until 4 but gradually it came back. He is still hard to understand at times, and has verbal dyspraxia too which makes things harder, but he can convey LOADS now. He uses basic language, gesture, writing and repeating situational 'script' from fav films.
We manage pretty well.

But PECs kick started him

The other thing to keep in mind, as I'm sure you all know, is to keep it FUNCTIONAL. The example of Cyberseraphim's DS1 saying "bye bye" is a good one as that would NOT be functional for DS, he has no interest in it so I would work on something more useful in his case. It has exasperated me over the years how much people have insisted on trying to get him to sign "thank you". Now, nothing wrong with saying "thank you", but when you've got limited communication and we need to capitalise on all ability and willingness to communicate, then "thank you" and "bye bye" aren't top of the list! Another thing that sometimes gets overlooked is teaching functional "yes" and "no", that took us years!

DS1 is 10 and non-verbal.

Keep plugging away at it. The biggest leap forward communication wise came for us when ds1 was 7 and learned to imitate. Suddenly a whole new world opened for him. He also learned some Makaton pretty quickly then. He didn't pick up a single sign before he could imitate (unsurprisingly; although you can teach hand over hand).

Now his communication is pretty good and we use lots of different ways. For example on Saturday he wanted to come and pick up ds2 from Stagecoach with me, so he fetched a photo of ds2 pointed at it and said 'nanny' (his version of ds2's name) then pointed out the door and said 'Mummy' (his one word) then pointed at himself and said "narhee" (his version of his name). Yesterday he was playing with a calculator and kept showing me numbers so I was saying 'IS THAT 44' (tapped a spot on the table) 'OR 42" (tapped a different spot on the table). He then chose the right spot. He quite enjoyed that so we did it for a while. We use that tapping method a lot as it's so flexible (although I started with the choices written on paper then moved onto tapping with a spoken word). 'Do you want X or Y" "Are you saying X or Y" "Yes or No" But before you can use that method you need to make sure your child understands choice. And understanding of Yes and No is very new for us (in the last year) but has made communication easier again.

So I would say keep plugging away at PECS - once ds1 got that it made life easier, work on imitation and work on choice. Don't worry too much about speech at this stage.

I guess teaching PECS, Makton, etc, depends on the ability of your ds. My ds is almost 7yrs old but his communication hasn't moved on much since he was 2/3yrs old because he has SLD (he is totally non-verbal, although he is totally non-silent!!). Makaton is out for him because he can't imitate and doesn't understand choice but he will use PECS when prompted (although they are photographs of objects rather than 'real' PECS).

PECS is such a good system, I recommend continuing to use it with your ds. When my ds was at SN nursery, he was assessed by the resident SALT every 6mths and her report/recommendations were passed onto the nursery staff for them to implement - is this happening for your ds?

Good point from Manny- and if PECS symbols are problematic go right back and use reference objects to begin with before moving onto photographs, then symbols.

The best thing that worked well with my DS (non verbal also when aged 4) was first teaching him "do this" and getting him to copy a hand movement (eg raise hand or clap hands). Prompt him hand over hand at first, then gradually he learns to copy it when you say "do this" - at which he gets LOADS OF PRAISE AND A CHOC/SWEET REWARD. Then move onto lots of other "do this" commands (eg hop, kick leg, touch nose). Then one day, a long time into all this, say "do this " and make a sound with your mouth (eg "d" or "c"). When he copies it, or even makes any tiny attempt to copy it, give him wildly ecstatic praise and rewards. Then, after a long time practising just sounds, move onto something that he's really motivated by (eg in my DS's case he loved to be pushed on the swing, so we would say "do this - "P" and when he made an attempt at "P" we'd say - push , yes , good boy and give him a massive push on swing with loads of praise. Then push for "pu" sound, then eventually "push". It is painstaking, and very hard work (he still to this day says push as two syllables "pu sh") but it is the ABA approach as it believes that speech can be taught like any other behaviour, through getting the right motivation in place and lots of practice. Of course some children have difficulty forming the sounds, eg my son also has verbal dyspraxia, so lots of practice also took place with my DS in front of mirror or tutor, seeing how the mouth moves for each sound and copying each element, eg mouth shape, tongue movement. I know I am in the minority, but I thought PECs (or perhaps PECs as it was used by my DS's special needs nursery) did not help develop speech at all. But I defer to others for whom it has been very effective in promoting speech/communication. But I would definitely try the above approach with your 4 year old also. Good luck. NB - my boy has now hundreds of words, and also now about 10 6 word sentences, but it is still a long haul and may well be for some time to come.

We've not had any real success with anything, yet, with DS2 (3y7m). Thankfully, he is pretty good at showing us what he wants by leading us to it and he has begun to use some very basic gestures. Sometimes he'll nod or shake his head and he'll stand at the gate behind which he knows it's kept and mime bouncing when he wants his trampoline, for instance.

His SALT is working on understanding the idea of using picture cards (as are his LSA and I) but he tends to push the cards to one side when we show him them, a lot of the time. He is beginning to try to copy actions to songs and his eye contact has really improved with people he is close to, so I'm beginning to use makaton signs again with him. (I did as a matter of course for ages, since he was tiny, but fell out of the habit when he wasn't even looking at me most of the time.)

In your shoes, I'd concentrate on the PECS, since they seem to be a success.